mjg59: Note that by "Enable Touchpad" it also m

Matthew Garrett (

mjg59) wrote,
@ 2008-04-23 17:21:00

Entry tags:

advogato

Note that by "Enable Touchpad" it also means "Make my touchpad mouse buttons work". For machines that are only equipped with a touchpad (and, indeed, some that are equipped with a trackpoint as well - it depends on how it's wired up), the only option is to figure out that the space bar or enter will save you.

(Ubuntu-specific change, introduced in 8.04)

(Post a new comment)

	nunfetishist 2008-04-23 05:07 pm UTC (link)
	Another reason why instant-apply preference windows are evil? One wrong click, and you've got to work out how to click without clicking. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	mjg59 2008-04-23 05:09 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think delayed apply would be a great deal of help here - you'd get to figure out that your mouse has stopped working after the window that would let you reenable it has vanished... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	nunfetishist 2008-04-23 05:13 pm UTC (link)
	Not in the case of you wanting to change its setting, no - but it would if you accidentally disabled the option due to finger trouble. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2008-04-23 06:05 pm UTC (link)

Would you actually be using the trackpad or touchpad if you had finger trouble?

I personally have used the equivalent option on some notebooks because I connected a mouse to the thing and didn't want to accidentally move the mouse with my palms. There's a physical button on several notebooks to accomplish this.

Plus it saves a leetle bit of battery when disabled. Useful if you don't use the mouse at all.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mjg59 2008-04-23 06:08 pm UTC (link)
	This option doesn't save any power - it just means that the driver refuses to send the input events to the X server. The hardware isn't powered down. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ewx 2008-04-23 06:23 pm UTC (link)
	The same logic often used for video mode changes would be suitable. If someone disables an input device they should be invited to confirm within a short time period and the change reverted if they don't. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	i_am_toast 2008-04-23 05:37 pm UTC (link)
	cackles (Reply to this)

(Anonymous)
2008-04-23 06:00 pm UTC (link)

At the same time, it's incredibly useful to be able to disable trackpads on many laptops, because they mess things up when you are trying to type away. Luckily, the two laptops I use now don't need it (one has a hardware button for this, the other a pin instead), but I remember extremely unfondly the one before that...

But it begs the question: What is the better solution? Preferably user friendly, just because I know how to edit xorg.conf doesn't mean I like it... I for one think this is a great feature, but I'm more than prepared to concede the point if I see better solutions.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	mjg59 2008-04-23 06:07 pm UTC (link)
	That depends on what you're trying to solve. If you want to disable the touchpad during typing, then a small daemon that does so while the user is typing would be reasonable. If you want the touchpad to be disabled in the general case, then it needs to be conditional on the presence of other pointing devices. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2008-04-23 06:41 pm UTC (link)

To be more specific: the problem (which I share with many, see forums/lists/google for many frustrated brethren) is that on many laptops, the cursor is involuntarily moved during typing sessions. Especially annoying for us poor typists that fire off long rows of text without looking at the screen... nah, come to think of it, it's probably equally annoying for all. :)

For the most part, this is solved by disabling the tap-to-click only, and that's sufficient - that the cursor moves does not matter in most cases. But on many laptops, or at least this used to be the case, that was not possible, only disabling it all-or-nothing. I can only assume that this is what that option is trying to solve...

Your daemon idea is intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter, to paraphrase Homer Simpson. ;) No, really. If it could find the sweet spot for delays between switching modes it would be really nice and would solve a LOT of frustration. That is indeed a better option.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mjg59 2008-04-23 07:02 pm UTC (link)
	You've been able to disable tap to click since the previous release of Ubuntu. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2008-04-23 08:04 pm UTC (link)
	It's been possible to do for longer than that, IF you were lucky enough to have the right model from the right vendor. Though it may be that it's possible outside xorg.conf now? :) Anyhow, tap to click is wonderful when not typing, so ideally, for supported touchpads, there would be such a dameon that toggled that part only. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	suppressingfire 2008-04-24 03:55 am UTC (link)
	If "Option SHMConfig true" is in xorg.conf, it's been possible to do it "dynamically" for a long time. QSynaptics (and now gsynaptics) has been around for quite a while. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	mjg59 2008-04-24 04:06 am UTC (link)
	Yes, it's been in the mouse preferences since gutsy. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2008-04-24 03:56 am UTC (link)
	With a synaptics touchpad (I think they all are?) you enable shmconfig in xorg.conf, then you can use syndaemon to disable the trackpad while you're typing, lasting a configuable interval (I use one second) after the last keystroke. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	mjg59 2008-04-24 04:04 am UTC (link)
	They're not all Synaptics touchpads, but the interface presented by the kernel is identical so that's not terribly relevant. The problem with shmconfig is that it's a screaming security nightmare and makes it impossible to handle fast user switching sanely, so it's not really a solution. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	To commenters above http://myid.pl/id/patrys 2008-04-23 06:04 pm UTC (link)
	It's not a problem with instant/delayed apply. This option is plain stupid. It should say "disable touchpad when additional pointing devices present" and do exactly that using HAL. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: To commenters above (Anonymous) 2008-04-23 06:08 pm UTC (link)
	What if I wanted to disable the touchpad _without_ any additional pointing devices present? Would that be not gnomic enough? (i.e. an option too many) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: To commenters above mjg59 2008-04-23 06:10 pm UTC (link)
	Given that for the vast majority of users it's equivalent to "make my laptop useless", then yes, it's not a sensible option to put in the UI. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: To commenters above mjg59 2008-04-23 06:09 pm UTC (link)
	HAL isn't (currently) adequate. Many laptops have a trackpoint/touchpad combination that presents as a single PS/2 device. You need to know more about the hardware in order to tell if that's the case, and so far I haven't come up with a method that's sufficiently trustworthy. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: To commenters above

suppressingfire
2008-04-23 09:08 pm UTC (link)

A possible UI hack is to split it into two checkboxes:

[ ] Disable touchpad when external mouse is attached
[ ] Always disable touchpad

Where the sub-option is only enabled when the first is enabled. That would make it possible for both cases to be handled, and prevent users that might be randomly testing out options from putting themselves into that situations.

Another possibility is to enable and present (in text) an extra key chord (Ctrl-M?) when the touchpad is disabled.

So, the default case:

[ ] Disable touchpad entirely

And when the checkbox is activated:

[*] Disable touchpad entirely (Press Ctrl-M to re-enable)

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: To commenters above
(Anonymous)
2008-04-23 06:33 pm UTC (link)

Well no, that's not entirely correct. I disable it all the time on my laptop, with no extra pointing device. Because it sucks when trying to type a lot... And that is a really common case, search forums/lists/web for people trying to do exactly that, for that exact reason. Of course, that's arguably poorly designed laptops, but those exist and are used in abundance. In my case, it does have a hardware button for this though, and going to a separate interface like this is obviously clumpsy. But your reasoning does not take the whole story into account is all I'm saying.

The daemon suggested above sounds more on the right track, if it can strike the correct balance in delays.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: To commenters above (Anonymous) 2008-04-23 07:05 pm UTC (link)
	there is such a deamon for synaptics touchpads. Can't recall the name, but searching packages.{ubuntu,debia} should bring it up... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: To commenters above (Anonymous) 2008-04-23 08:06 pm UTC (link)
	If there is, and it works well, then that should be the functionality offered instead. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	Perhaps a countdown dialog? http://openid.aol.com/echempel 2008-04-23 06:33 pm UTC (link)
	Like when changing screen resolutions ... "do you want to keep this setting yes/[n]o" 15 secs to choose or it reverts. (Reply to this)

	Why? (Anonymous) 2008-04-23 09:02 pm UTC (link)
	Good timing for a rant! (just a day before release) (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: Why? mjg59 2008-04-23 09:36 pm UTC (link)
	It's hardly like it's the first time I've complained about this... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Why? vadi.myopenid.com 2008-04-24 04:34 am UTC (link)
	It should be "disable touchpad" if what. That said, I cannot get the "SHMConfig" option in xorg.conf to be happy so I can launch gsynaptics someday and disable touchpad while typing (I always carry a logitech nano mouse with me anyway). Tried "on", "true", but same error always :( (Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: Why?

keybuk
2008-04-24 05:30 pm UTC (link)

And far be it from me to bring up old arguments but ...

When you did complain, instead of discussing it and helping to come up with a better solution, you simply resigned from Ubuntu and deleted your Launchpad account.

Nobody else has taken up the baton of championing the opinion that such a checkbox is a problem, so the situation has remained the same. Everyone I've spoken to is of the opinion that unchecking "Enable touchpad" is no more dangerous than unchecking the "Enable mouse clicks with touchpad" box below it, or by changing the "Mouse Orientation" radio group on the first page. (All of them leave you in a situation where clicking again does not undo the action).

Nobody has been affected by this and filed a bug, nobody has even filed a support request or come into IRC wondering why their touchpad doesn't work after unchecking "Enable Touchpad".

Since the only person who actually seems to care about this (you) resigned instead of discussing it, it's not surprising the option is still there (and proving to be popular - at least one reviewer has cheered upon finding it).

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Why?

mjg59
2008-04-24 07:10 pm UTC (link)

I resigned because I'd been increasingly feeling that things were being done with little regard to the "right solution". This case was just the last straw. On the other hand, I'm not surprised that there's no bugs filed - the option does exactly what it says it does, and the vast majority of users are going to assume that it's working as designed and so not a bug. It's much harder to get feedback on poor UI than it is to get people to tell you that something is fundamentally broken. It still causes irritation and makes people wonder what we were thinking, but it's then followed by a "pshaw" and them getting on with life.

Multiple people have independently come up with the suggestion of a confirmation dialog akin to the screen resolution setting one, but fundamentally it really ought to be checking whether there's another pointer device (people who want to use GNOME without a pointer device are such a ridiculously niche case that they're not really worth worrying about.

I don't think the enabling of tap to click is as much of an issue - I've never seen a touchpad without associated buttons. I'd agree that the mouse orientation option allows for similar failures, and I'd describe that as a bug as well - it's just much less likely to be hit, given the relatively low number of users running Ubuntu on Apple hardware. It's also significantly easier to fix, given the higher level of discoverability for ADB and USB hardware.

As for popular - enabling SHMConfig would be popular. That still doesn't make it the right solution.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	niqdanger 2008-04-25 12:44 pm UTC (link)
	I agree that it should not have disabled it by default, especially if you didn't have an external mouse installed ;-) I was very happy to find that check box in 8.04. I have a Vaio that I use with an external mounse because the track pad always seems to catch either my thumb or palm and it jerks the cursor all over the screen on me. I want it OFF! And now, it is. Ahhh.... (Reply to this)

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