Matthew Garrett ([info]mjg59) wrote,
@ 2008-04-23 00:21:00
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Entry tags:advogato

...

Leaving aside the obvious failure (asking women to classify themselves into those who are happy to have their breasts groped and those who aren't - and yes, that is the effective choice, since refusing to participate will result in people making conclusions about which of those categories you fit into), there's the whole "open-source breast" thing.

Creating copyrightable works is a choice. Having breasts is not[1]. Attempting to equate the two is not reasonable. Applying "open-source" to things that are not directly comparable to copyrightable works is like applying "Darwinism" to things that are not directly comparable to natural selection operating upon living things. Discussing Darwinistic politics is likely to result in people concluding that you're either a libertarian fuckloon or blame atheists for the death of your cat. Discussing open-source breasts is likely to result in me stabbing you in the fucking eye. Don't make the baby Jesus cry when he sees your horribly mutilated face. Just accept that open source is a useful licensing model, not an entire way of life.

Or: get your hands off my adjective or you'll find my hands on things you really don't want groping, whether you're wearing a badge or not.

(And yes, I realise that this is not the offensive aspect of things. This says it better than I could)

(Previously)

(Previously previously)

[1] There's a set of basically uninteresting exceptions. And by "uninteresting" I mean "If you are trying to argue over this, then you are missing the fucking point"


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[info]tieguy.org
2008-04-23 12:26 am UTC (link)
THE STUPID... IT BLINDS ME

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[info]tieguy.org
2008-04-23 12:32 am UTC (link)
Oh, and this response (http://misia.livejournal.com/1055120.html) FTW.

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(Anonymous)
2008-04-23 02:53 am UTC (link)
Actually, the lack of symmetry sorta detracts from the logical construction of reductio ad absurdia.. By inverting the meaning of labeling oneself, a can of worms is opened up that is not present in the original. I can't help but think that the author did this intentionally because the Modest Proposal would then not be so outrageous. So in a sense, FAIL.

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(Anonymous)
2008-04-23 03:02 am UTC (link)
Ok. So I reread the post, and I can now see why this guy is stupid. He's not only a terrible author incapable of presenting a linear flow of ideas, he's also incapable of extrapolating into the future.

Guess I'm glad I forgot to log in for that bonehead post.

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[info]other_tetromino
2008-04-23 03:17 am UTC (link)
Actually, [info]misia fails at writing modest proposals.

What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin? Peer pressure. In a convention with the grope pin system, a good number of women who are insecure about their bodies, or who don't want to seem unfriendly, or who don't want to spoil the party, will let random strangers grope them even if they are very uncomfortable with the situation.

Now, let's look at misia's nut-kicking pin. Can you imagine any man who could be peer-pressured into allowing others to randomly kick him in the gonads? I don't think so. You can pressure a man into consuming idiotic quantities of alcohol, into doing highly dangerous stunts, into messing up his own life forever - but there is nothing you can do to convince a sane man to let someone damage his crown jewels. Either misia doesn't understand basic male psychology, or she sucks at satire.

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"What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]tieguy.org
2008-04-23 04:03 am UTC (link)
Or, uh, that most women don't like having their breasts groped by strangers? Maybe that is the fundamental problem? Just an idea.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]other_tetromino
2008-04-23 04:25 am UTC (link)
You misunderstood. Let me explain.

Some women (say, 5% of the female population) are OK with strangers groping their breasts. Most women (say, 95%) do not want to be groped. The inventor of the groping pin thought "Hey! If I tell all the grope-friendly women to wear a special pin, I will know whose breasts I can fondle without getting an eyeball full of pepper spray! The women who are OK with being groped will be groped, the women who are not OK with getting groped won't be groped, and the world will be a better place with sparkles and unicorns!"

Except the world doesn't work that way. Thanks to peer pressure, in a convention with the pin system, some women who are uncomfortable with getting their breasts groped will be pressured into wearing the pin anyway. And pressuring people who do not like being groped into being groped is, basically, evil.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]robhu
2008-04-23 07:59 am UTC (link)
Except the world doesn't work that way. Thanks to peer pressure, in a convention with the pin system, some women who are uncomfortable with getting their breasts groped will be pressured into wearing the pin anyway. And pressuring people who do not like being groped into being groped is, basically, evil.
And / or thanks to peer pressure theferret's posts will disappear under a torrent of criticism which disadvantages that 5% of women who would like this system.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]rmc28
2008-04-23 10:05 am UTC (link)
So, 5% of women don't get to enjoy getting their breasts groped by strangers, but 95% don't get to feel harassed, uncomfortable and/or threatened.

If the proportions were reversed, this would still be right - removing an enjoyment is far less serious than imposing discomfort.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]robhu
2008-04-23 10:09 am UTC (link)
Err... why are any women getting harassed? He makes it very clear in his post that it is an opt-in system, and has stressed (in the edit as people seemed to jump to conclusions) that no one would be asked that hadn't opted in.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]rmc28
2008-04-23 10:20 am UTC (link)
You are missing the point that the very existence of an 'opt-in' system is an imposition of discomfort on the women who don't want to be seen primarily as possessors of breasts.

I suggest you read this post (linked above): http://springheel-jack.livejournal.com/2504302.html

Also I will quote something written in an locked post by someone else on f-list, which says what I want to but better:

"The initial starting point of the Open Source Boobs Project was when one woman said "you can touch mine". That's fine. She invited in the context of a group discussion, and it's not far off my own thoughts of exactly *which* bit of a breast a bikini has to cover in order to guarantee decency (prompted by seeing a bikini made up of two coin size bits of cloth). (And doesn't that term "boob" say it all?)

The next step though was to hand out badges for people to wear to indicate whether they could be asked or not.

At that moment, it became coercive. In that moment the people concerned moved into "Don't you have a sense of humour?" Territory. At that moment, choosing to wear the red badge or not to wear one at all, put women in an "out" group."

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]robhu
2008-04-23 10:23 am UTC (link)
You are missing the point that the very existence of an 'opt-in' system is an imposition of discomfort on the women who don't want to be seen primarily as possessors of breasts.
I guess we just fundamentally disagree on that. I think being upset about other people opting in to something is an unreasonable imposition of the ideas of one person on another.

If it were hugging say, and the majority of women didn't want to be hugged but some did, I think the debate would be different. Is hugging different from having your breasts touched? Well if it were me, yes, but that's a personal call, and other people should not be making it.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]rmc28
2008-04-23 10:36 am UTC (link)
Have you actually read what I quoted? Once you move to a button system, choices are imposed on me that I don't want. I am either up for being groped or "not in the group", with all that peer pressure implies about being not-in, not-cool, not-sexually-liberated. Distinctly unpleasant. I have no problem with individuals offering their breasts for groping; I have a problem with institutionalising that choice across a whole population.

I think that if I turned up to a convention and was asked "here, do you want to opt-in to having your breasts felt by strangers? It's ok, no-one will bother you if you don't have a pin" I personally would feel uncomfortable, pressured, and generally regarded as breasts-first, person second. And I probably would ask for my money back and leave, because I'm stroppy and don't need my self-worth validated by others opinions of my breasts.

I would also feel the same about a pin to indicate you could hug me if I was wearing it. I don't want to be somewhere where my personal boundary choices are imposed by others.

Have you actually read the link that both Matthew and I have posted, which talks about power and privilege and the realities of imposed 'opt-in' systems.

In any case, you are ignoring the point I originally made that if 95% of women are uncomfortable with the system, and 5% are quite happy, it is better for 5% of women to 'miss out' on some fun groping than for 95% of women to feel uncomfortable. And this would be just as true if it were 95% of women having to 'miss out' to protect 5% of women feeling uncomfortable.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]pjc50
2008-04-23 10:51 am UTC (link)
Mr. Hu. is an exemplar of the sort of person springheel-jack's article complains about.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]rmc28
2008-04-23 11:02 am UTC (link)
He is missing both asymmetries involved:

1. The asymmetry between "stopping some optional extra fun" and "removing a source of discomfort".

2. The asymmetry between "some women might like this" and "the group as a whole will make women choose whether they do or don't like this".

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]pjc50
2008-04-23 11:06 am UTC (link)
Oh, I was thinking of "Why is it that whenever you hear a line like this one, there's always a libertarian or an objectivist behind it? Well, here's why: the basic libertarian fallacy is that only human individuals and face-to-face interactions between those individuals exist; there are no other social facts that could have any ethical weight."

Or, more succinctly, "asshole".

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]rmc28
2008-04-24 06:03 am UTC (link)
That too.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]pjc50
2008-04-23 10:50 am UTC (link)
It's not the act, it's the signalling.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]pjc50
2008-04-23 10:21 am UTC (link)
Have you actually found an actual woman who would like this system and wear a green pin with it? I think the proportion is much, much smaller than 1%.

What I find astonishing about the whole thing is the geeky/soixant-huitard idea that nobody has ever thought about this before, that the only thing standing between men and the gratification of the desire to grope is the lack of a protocol. Of course there is such a protocol, it's just big and complicated and fuzzy and difficult to negotiate, especially for systematisers.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]robhu
2008-04-23 10:23 am UTC (link)
I'm not really interested in how many women would want to do it. It could well be smaller than 1%. I'm more interested in how other people want to suppress the right of other women to take part in such an opt-in system.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]mjg59
2008-04-23 10:31 am UTC (link)
Are you genuinely an idiot, or do you just play one on the internet?

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]robhu
2008-04-23 10:34 am UTC (link)
Nice.

So that's how you respond. Right, well I'll stop commenting here then.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]pjc50
2008-04-23 10:48 am UTC (link)
He at least plays one on the internet regularly in religion debates.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]pjc50
2008-04-23 10:31 am UTC (link)
Ah, rights. The catch-all.

Regardless of rights, can you accept that the system and its promotion and side effects would annoy and even upset a lot of people?

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]robhu
2008-04-23 10:33 am UTC (link)
I can.

In the same way that in a strongly Islamic country a lot of people might get upset about women not wearing head coverings, and such like.

Personally I'm not terribly fond of the open-breast project, but I think when we go down the road of pressuring others in to living life the way we want to live it we're on a very dangerous path that most people are blind to.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]rmc28
2008-04-23 10:37 am UTC (link)
when we go down the road of pressuring others in to living life the way we want to live it we're on a very dangerous path that most people are blind to.

What, like saying "hey, you have to wear this green pin if you want to be one of the cool crowd"?

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]pjc50
2008-04-23 10:47 am UTC (link)
How exactly do you have a society of any kind without pressuring others into living life the way we want it?

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]kita0610
2008-04-24 10:44 pm UTC (link)
Hey, do me a favor? I think all men should be required to wear a button saying if it's okay for me to find their prostate with the dildo of my choice. I promise to be very respectful with your ass and I will use lube.

No, silly, you don't get to not play- opting IN or OUT is the only choice. See, you either wear a button or not. Everyone participates in this project, no matter which they choose!

You first.

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[info]skywardprodigal
2008-04-27 02:01 pm UTC (link)
Hark! I hear crickets in yon distance.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]neurosophy
2008-04-23 08:06 pm UTC (link)
Oh Christ on a cracker. If I want people to "opt-in" to feeling me up, I can stand around shouting "hey! hey you! Wanna touch my breasts?" I can even set up a little "Open Source Boobs" (uugh) booth at a conference. Or, fuck, I can go to a streetcorner and wait for a proposition.

By implying that our discussion of why the OSB-pin is fundamentally retarded and implicitly oppressive might be suppressing someone's rights, you demonstrate that you get it! Social dynamics are relevant! (Note that none of us was proposing the creation of a law, that which would actually suppress a right.)

So: our discussion suppresses the rights of the please-grope-me crowd. But pin-wearing does not oppress the please-don't-grope-me crowd. Please explain.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]trepkos
2008-04-24 11:12 pm UTC (link)
If a woman is really keen on having her breasts groped by random strangers, she can surely get her own tee-shirt made proclaiming it.
If she does that without it being suggested by someone else - simply because she wants to - that's fine.

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Re: "What is the fundamental problem with the breast-groping pin?"
[info]perligata
2008-04-23 04:31 am UTC (link)
You people and your ideas.

Seriously, I can't decide if I'm more offended by:

a) the groping
b) the orgiastic afterglow prose that is reminiscent of bad romance novels
c) abuse of "And lo"
d) stupid broken comparison highlighted by Matthew

Oversexualized truckload of FAIL.

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[info]pjc50
2008-04-23 08:34 am UTC (link)
Can you imagine any man who could be peer-pressured into allowing others to randomly kick him in the gonads?

I think there's a TV series with that premise.

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[info]neurosophy
2008-04-24 01:54 am UTC (link)
Oh damn. Sucks to me for not reading (See below).

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[info]neurosophy
2008-04-24 01:51 am UTC (link)
Have you not seen "Jackass"?

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[info]secretlondon
2008-04-23 12:38 am UTC (link)
I'm so glad I missed this until I saw someone's post about it today. I've only skimmed stuff about it but my brain melted at the total wankerdom involved.

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[info]puzzlement
2008-04-23 12:51 am UTC (link)
But! Creating a false analogy between something non-copyrightable and open source has so many advantages! The main one being, in so doing I label my preferred option 'open source' and the other one 'closed' and thus can piggyback on a bunch of detailed arguments and also a whole bunch of related and murky cultural norms saying that open source and thus by analogy my preferred option in whatever is better, freer and also the future and closed source and by a stunning coincidence also my dis-preferred option is evil.

If you take this away from us, people with breasts will walk around unmolested and unjudged, but where will arguments on the Internet be again, huh?

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[info]mjg59
2008-04-23 12:56 am UTC (link)
Oh, of course. That's why my plan to take over Liberia involves branding my fascist government as "open source". As long as I appoint Ron Paul as some sort of special advisor, I'm all set.

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[info]neurosophy
2008-04-23 08:09 pm UTC (link)
Now you admit it! Fascist!

CAN NOT HAZ LIBERIA!

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[info]jdev
2008-04-23 04:39 am UTC (link)
Clearly he's doing it wrong. Open source boobs, or open source male assholes for that matter, would entail letting other people have copies of the body part in question, and modify/redistribute/use those copies as they see fit. These copies would, of course, have to be in the preferred form for making modifications to them, so probably some kind of CAD file or mechanical model rather than the actual source.

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[info]senji
2008-04-23 10:10 am UTC (link)
I believe the preferred form for modification in this case is a gamete.

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[info]jamezm
2008-04-23 05:41 am UTC (link)
This was one of the best responses I read:
http://theferrett.livejournal.com/1087798.html?view=54800694#t54800694

Anyway, he's shut down the discussion and not going to the cons next year. I wonder if the he'll leave the internet for EVAR.

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[info]damerell
2008-04-23 01:50 pm UTC (link)
WTF! And probably OMG RCMP BBQ! as well.

That's, um, different.

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[info]gravityboy
2008-04-23 02:20 pm UTC (link)
How do you find this shit? It's like a fountain of idiocy!

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[info]neurosophy
2008-04-23 08:53 pm UTC (link)
Wow, the whole internet is angry. Okay. Some of my friends are angry.

My friend Jo, the most sex-positive person I know, in her usual style, gracefully makes a big issue personal, then amplifies and contextualizes .

My friend isako is characteristically furious and trenchant .

I now feel compelled to post about this. Mild irony.

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Open Source fetishists
(Anonymous)
2008-04-24 07:00 pm UTC (link)
In short,
he: I write Free Software. she: Cool, me too!
he: I'm into Open Source. she: [kicks testicles, storms off]
I've been trying to explain the distinction for years. We need to print up buttons to pass out at the next Con: "Free Software/Me too" and "Open Source/Kick my testicles".

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[info]kita0610
2008-04-24 10:46 pm UTC (link)
Well said.

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