Matthew Garrett ([info]mjg59) wrote,
@ 2007-03-29 14:52:00
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I'm not really sure which I find more disappointing - this, this or this.

The Ubuntu Code of Conduct is something that's designed to ensure two things. Firstly, and perhaps most obviously, that discussions don't end up bogged down in personal abuse with no useful conclusions being drawn. Secondly, and perhaps more subtly, to ensure that potential contributors aren't put off by an atmosphere of perceived hostility.

The second point has been most commonly raised with respect to women in computing (perhaps most notably by the FLOSSPOLS findings), but it's not limited to that. One of the reasons I'm not involved with Debian nowadays is the atmosphere on the mailing lists[1]. If you're about to make something that you expect to be a controversial point, realising that the likely result is going to be a certain number of responses implying that holding that opinion is stupid is a pretty strong incentive to avoid posting in the first place. Suppressing the expression of thoughts isn't beneficial, even if you're not doing so deliberately.

Now, the obvious response to this is to accuse the CoC of enforcing some sort of Tellytubby land where people are nice to each other and it's all a mutual love-in. Which isn't, in fact, the case. Disagreeing with people is fine, but disagreeing in a factual and precise manner is significantly more useful than disagreeing in a manner that gives the strong impression that it would have been more helpful if the original poster had died rather than sending the mail in the first place. You're not even obliged to behave in a friendly way towards people - just avoid behaving in a clearly unfriendly way. A good rule of thumb is probably that if you think it would potentially result in a complaint to your boss if you did it in a moderately large company, then doing it on an Ubuntu mailing list is a bad plan.

So, the original point. The joke itself implies that there's no way to know why women behave the way they do, even to the point where a (presumably) omniscient god has no idea. Unsurprisingly, telling a large body of potential contributors that their behaviour is irrational[2] isn't a great way making them feel like their contributions are welcomed. But, oh no! It's actually ok - we're supposed to replace "women" with "newbs", because suggesting that basically your entire pool of potential contributors that their behaviour is irrational is much less bad.

Cough.

We then get to Caroline's post, an expression of frustration about an aspect of life. It contains the word "Fuck", which doesn't seem unreasonable in context. There's then a complaint from someone claiming that it's offensive, which means we have to consider a few things. Firstly, is the author of the complaint actually offended, or just attempting to claim that there's hypocrisy involved? Given the context, I'd suspect the latter. Arguably this isn't really the point, though - the issue isn't whether a given person is offended, it's whether it'll offend someone who would otherwise potentially make a valuable member of the community. Right now, I'd suspect that we (as a community) don't really object to it strongly. Google suggests that swearing isn't unheard of on the lists. While swearing in the context of a personal attack is pretty clearly a violation of the CoC[3], people don't seem to be objecting to it in general.

So, is it unacceptable to swear within the Ubuntu community? Right now, I'd say that (in appropriate contexts) it's not a problem. If a moderate number of people claim that the current degree of swearing dissuades them from being involved, then it may become a problem. Accusing someone of hypocrisy for swearing (not clearly a CoC issue, especially in context) after they claimed that a sexist joke might be, well, offensive? Yeah, I'd say that that one's pretty clearly unacceptable. Telling people that it's pretty funny and that they're wrong to be offended? History suggests that it's not a good plan. If you think someone's wrong to be offended, then a good first step is trying to figure out why rather than just dismissing them.

Of course, there's also the entirely secondary issue of what the roles of planet sites in the community are. Personally, I like to think of them as opportunities to see what people are really like rather than being reflections of people's behaviours on project mailing lists[4]. From that point of view, I think that the bounds of acceptable behaviour should be a little more liberal. If people disagree, that's not a problem and things can change - but expecting people to change their behaviour before there's any sort of general opinion that it's unacceptable isn't ok.

Which leaves open the question of whether posting sexist jokes to mailing lists is on the acceptable side of the CoC[5] or not. I'd be surprised if the ubuntu-uk community genuinely thought so, but if they do then there are pretty clearly issues that we need to solve. As far as I'm concerned, justifying that sort of behaviour has no place in Ubuntu.

[1] Yes, I'm aware that there's a certain degree of irony there
[2] For the record, yes, I do believe that women often behave in irrational ways. So do men.
[3] I find it surprisingly hard not to write that as COCK. Too much Jerkcity
[4] Which is, to an extent, why this journal isn't on Planet Ubuntu - there'd be potential for things I said to be mistaken for some sort of official Ubuntu position, which would end up limiting what I could say, which would kind of ruin the point
[5] Must... resist... temptation...



(33 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Wusses
(Anonymous)
2007-03-29 05:23 pm UTC (link)
This confirms my impression of the wuss factor of the Ubuntu self-righteous community, including developers. Yes, IMO you have become a bunch of politically correct wusses and a Shuttleworth fan club.

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Re: Wusses
[info]mjg59
2007-03-29 05:36 pm UTC (link)
Given that Mark's hardly a poster child for not offending women, this accusation seems... incongruous.

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Re: Wusses
[info]kjaneway
2007-03-29 05:41 pm UTC (link)
Anonymous poster accusing other people of being wusses?

Kettle, call on line three from Pot.

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Re: Wusses
[info]nou
2007-03-29 05:46 pm UTC (link)
I'm not convinced there's actually anything wrong with being a wuss, anyway. There are plenty of development communities out there that don't take people's feelings and emotions into consideration, so if you don't want to be part of a "fluffier" community, you have plenty of choice. Why this hatred of the idea that some people might want to do things differently? It's not a threat to you (generic "you"), it's just one more option among many.

NB I don't know anything about Ubuntu, I'm just frustrated by one-true-way-ism.

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Re: Wusses
[info]kjaneway
2007-03-29 05:49 pm UTC (link)
Hell, I'm a Fedora user (who also uses Windows and Solaris, when necessary/appropriate)

But some of my best friends... are DDs or have worked for Canonical.

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Re: Wusses
[info]decklin
2007-03-30 02:04 am UTC (link)
(hi kake!)

I think these people may be projecting because they're upset that all the self-styled Tough People Who Tell It Like It Is (And Aren't Offended By Sexist Jokes) are consquently flocking to *their* projects and the hot air is making their shirt itch (In the case of anonymous trolls, of course, they won't admit it).

And I'll toss in with Matt here, about the atmosphere that creates... to be entirely honest, I probably would have picked up Debian again (after all my personal drama blew over) sooner if reading the mailing lists and just simply dealing with *anyone* wasn't so excruciating. Or maybe it would have been a *reason* to get over stuff, not a responsibility that was precluded. I don't know how much time I want to keep devoting to it, or where I see myself in another 6 years.

*drinks out of Ubuntu mug*

http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html is always worth rereading, at any rate. But it's more than that. Some people and some arguments are consistently more tiresome than fixing long lists of pedestrian bugs will ever be.

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(Anonymous)
2007-03-29 05:47 pm UTC (link)
How in the world is this offensive towards women? You seem to equate unfathomable with irrational. If anything it insults men, as being too thick to understand women.

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[info]mjg59
2007-03-29 05:56 pm UTC (link)
At the end, even God (an omniscient and omnipotent entity, remember) is unable to explain their behaviour. If God can't provide a rational explanation, how can their behaviour be anything other than irrational?

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[info]ronebofh
2007-03-29 05:57 pm UTC (link)
All it says is that God is a man. But we already knew that.

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[info]fiona_kitty
2007-03-29 07:25 pm UTC (link)
Given the context of the joke, for Lord read 'Omnipotent 5up3r-1337 haxx0r with a PhD in Engineering'. ;)

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[info]lusercop
2007-03-29 10:05 pm UTC (link)
Bloody engineers!

;-)

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(Anonymous)
2007-03-29 07:46 pm UTC (link)
God is unable to explain their behavior to a man("A man was riding a motorcycle..."). There are two common stereotypes that the joke rests upon: 1) women are irrational and unreasonable creatures, and 2) men are dense and emotionally illiterate creatures.

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[info]rynndragon
2007-03-30 08:09 pm UTC (link)
That's why it's a JOKE.

I actually first heard said joke from my friend's mother.

She thought it was hilarious.

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[info]mjg59
2007-03-30 08:26 pm UTC (link)
Ok. Let's apply that metric to racist jokes. I'm Irish by birth, and I've spent about half of my life there. Personally, I'm not offended by most jokes that take the piss out of the Irish. Depending on who I'm with at the time, I might even feel comfortable telling one. Does that mean that it's wrong for anyone else to be offended?

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[info]king_of_wrong
2007-03-29 05:57 pm UTC (link)
I found the joke funny (all N times I've heard it), but that doesn't mean it was a sensible thing to post to the mailing list.

People WILL get offended. There WILL be arguments. YOU TOO will look like a prat and, when you do, you'll fantasise that when you started coding people were resonable, decisions were made on their technical merits and everyone respected their developers. Respect your fellow developers.

(No, I've no idea why that turned into filk, but after two "WILL"s, it just seemed like the right thing to do...)

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[info]nou
2007-03-29 05:59 pm UTC (link)
One of the problems with it is that it's special-casing women. We're not people (or bikers, or gods, or the audience for the joke), we're some alien species that “real” people have no chance of understanding or empathising with.

Gender is one way of dividing the human race. In a software development context, it should be an irrelevant one.

The problem is not one joke or comment in isolation. It's the cumulative effect of thousands and thousands of little niggly things emphasising that there is a default, and that this default doesn't include me. (I do think that things are getting better. There's just still a little way to go yet.)

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[info]reddragdiva
2007-03-29 07:03 pm UTC (link)
Caroline's pretty cool actually. I'm sure you'd get along quite well. You could be angry at things together. Drag yourself down to B-Movie in April and I'll introduce you.

I've been reading about social history of technology. The problem with perfectly competent women being put off by the incumbency of puerile cat piss men goes back at least a hundred years. It's not a new problem. I'm vaguely trying to put together an inspirationally brilliant feminist theory on the subject with aims to a solution.

We had the same problem on Wikipedia (which Caroline can also bitch at length about) when someone dared propose a mailing list for Wikipedia women. The people (all male) who shouted down this idea (and made sure it wouldn't be hosted on a Wikimedia server) utterly failed to grasp the irony of their own hostility.

And Wikipedia, of course, has a requirement of civility and no personal attacks for much the same reasons as Ubuntu does - this is not Usenet and that sort of behaviour is not appropriate for a working environment, even a volunteer one. Having to thwap Usenet veterans about the head in an attempt to bring them to enlightenment as to the different environment is a perennial favourite.

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[info]reddragdiva
2007-03-29 07:04 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and on Usenet - I expect you were way too young to remember the proposal for comp.women in 1988 and how it elicited such darling responses as "why don't we have comp.pizza too?"

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[info]lusercop
2007-03-29 10:04 pm UTC (link)
OK, I'm confused, I read this as saying that [info]mjg59 is angry/disappointed at the person responding to [info]secretlondon, but as far as I understand it, your post is in saying that [info]mjg59 is getting annoyed at [info]secretlondon.

Frankly, I'm not sure I quite care - I think [info]mjg59 has several valid points about the CoC, and honestly, I think it's a not unreasonable thing to sign up to. The original joke, which while I have giggled to it because of the stereotypes within - as so many people - is completely out of place on such a mailing list. The discussion of the planet stuff is useless tripe, and honestly I'd have better spent the 5 mins that it took me to read it doing something else.

The whole lot need to mature a little, honestly, which, as far as I can tell is all [info]mjg59 is actually asking for!

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[info]reddragdiva
2007-03-29 10:06 pm UTC (link)
Er, no, I'm not saying that at all, and I agree with everything you said ...

I would have responded to said message on any list I run would be "[name of poster] is now moderated on this list."


- d.

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[info]lusercop
2007-03-29 10:09 pm UTC (link)
Oh, ok, in which case, sorry, it read to me in completely the opposite sense, having said that, I'm 4 pints down and on-call, and well, sleep deprived, so I'll blame that instead ;-)

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[info]secretlondon
2007-03-30 12:34 am UTC (link)
A coward should have posted this as anon, and I'm probably nuts for commenting but:

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-March/003730.html was actually the "official" response of Nik Butler, Ubuntu-UK leader.

I was awake until 2pm yesterday doing Wikignome work and have woken up to OMFG DRAMA!

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[info]ronebofh
2007-03-30 02:44 am UTC (link)
Um... what a fascinatingly pointless ramble. And Ubuntu-UK must love having a leader whose prose is so poorly polished.

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[info]reddragdiva
2007-03-30 07:30 am UTC (link)
That response actually goes beyond being crap into new realms of active point-avoidance.

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code code code
[info]jmtd
2007-03-29 09:54 pm UTC (link)
Obviously this is something which doesn't really apply to the non-engineering type of lists, but I've found that the most productive and least bitchy OSS mailing lists are those where the ratio of patch to english[*] is weighted heavily in favour of the patch: people express their opinion in terms of working code.

[*] I presume this applies to other languages too, but I only read english language lists...

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Re: code code code
[info]pjc50
2007-03-30 11:54 am UTC (link)
It's quite hard to be aggressive through the medium of code. Not impossible, though.

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Re: code code code
[info]jmtd
2007-03-30 02:57 pm UTC (link)
Precicely. It also requires the point your making to be vaguely feasible in practise :)

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Re: code code code
[info]pjc50
2007-03-30 03:15 pm UTC (link)
I was thinking of e.g. patches that explicily revert someone else's changes, changes designed to entrench an API against the will of the design discussion going on elsewhere, that sort of thing.

Then there's being rude about people in comments...

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About swearing
(Anonymous)
2007-03-30 04:09 pm UTC (link)
I personally find not being allowed to swear when you deem appropriate to be offending. I think its only the USA, were society thinks its normal to censor such things. There is some room for aguing that you can't use swear-words that offend religious persons (like .. damned), but there is no room to disallow any of these words:

Love
Fuck
Shit

Three things I try to do everyday. And I'm not ashamed of it.
Anybody who things those words are bad is a complete hypocriet. They are just lingual emoticons. What words could we use to express the same emotion?

Meneer R

ralf.nieuwenhuijsen ... gmail.com
-- dont have a OpenId/LiveJournal thingie

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[info]emperor
2007-03-30 07:52 pm UTC (link)
Ah, but your readers have missed your COCK, and the doses of FPAV you dished out.

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[info]snozzcumberpie
2007-04-03 08:27 pm UTC (link)
hi! i'm just reading this post (i'm a little late in the game haha) but i wanted to add my 2 cents. some of the things you mention i actually mentioned myself on the ubuntu-women list -- that the issue of caroline's swearing rather than being made a personal issue should be a community issue concerning the appropriateness of language in blogs featured on planets. i agree that blogs should be given leeway, and individuals reading blogs should be aware that these are personal blogs that people host themselves and do not necessarily represent ubuntu or whatever. i like the leeway because i like seeing people as they are. however if someone posts something that could be offensieve, they should expect people to comment on it ;D and if someone is really going over the top (slander/porn/hateful content) then they should be removed from planet. i keep my personal LJ off planet ubuntu-women because i don't want to deal with all that.

personally i was offended by that joke and it's the type of thing that should be told amongst friends. many women in tech have been part of forums or mailing lists where stating such an offense makes one the target.

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funny
[info]http://claimid.com/boredandblogging
2007-04-04 02:53 am UTC (link)
I just thought this was funny (in a sad way) considering how we have so few women involved in OSS: http://martinfowler.com/bliki/NetNastiness.html

(Reply to this)

Differences are real...but so are peoples' feelings
(Anonymous)
2007-09-13 12:39 pm UTC (link)
There are real emotional, social, &c. differences between men and women (as many clinical studies have confirmed) -- the rub comes in what factors one attributes those differences to. Currently, the most popular view, the "politically correct" one, is that the differences arise merely from social conditioning. But there are other views, such as that they arise from physical (genetic), "spiritual," or other factors. Or some combination. Simply to hold a different view than the mainstream is not to be sexist. The joke, playing on an exaggeration of the real differences (and in fact casting men in the negative light as being unable to even empathize with characteristically feminine attitudes and actions), should not be thought to be discriminatory of women. Taking the "punch" out of the punchline, an objective analysis of the joke reveals the point to be: it is easier to do some difficult task T, than to explain the experience and inner life of being woman to man--and isn't this the very point of the modern feminine identity movement, e.g., modern interest in Dickinson, exhibits like the vagina Monologues, &c.?

That said, and given that it is correct (even just for the sake of discussion), there is still the possibility of a knee-jerk response and misinterpretation. It is easy to see some innocuous comment and take it as an insult or attack. It happens all the time. Even such nuances as a slight raise in pitch, or a minor emphasis on a word or phrase, can turn a conversation into an argument on account of the perception of ill-intent. Given the penchant we humans (all of us!) have for miscommunication and misinterpretation, sometimes it is as good, as the apostle says, to "avoid the appearance of evil," as it is to avoid the actual evil. And certainly the mailing list is not a place for jokes--especially not those with potential to evoke unnecessary consternation and division. So I think both sides have been wrong, those who have simply defended the joke qua joke, without regard to the context and medium; and those who have attacked the joke qua joke, instead of it's inappropriateness in the context.

Sorry for the long comment, but I think both points are important.

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