Matthew Garrett ([info]mjg59) wrote,
@ 2006-08-28 22:11:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
I resigned from Debian today.

It wasn't actually any one thing. But over the past few weeks (months? Years?) it's become clear to me that Debian doesn't really seem to know who or what it's for. Arguments erupt over whether something is a deeply held principle or an accident of phrasing on the website; whether we should release more often or less often; whether free software is more important than our users having functional hardware. And, depressingly, these debates generally seem to turn into pedantic point scoring and insults and yes, I'm probably as guilty as many others in this respect. But it's got to the point where social interaction with Debian-the-distribution makes me want to stab people, even though I've just spent a lovely weekend with Debian-the-people. Perhaps worse, I occasionally find mails I've sent that make me want to stab me.

So it's got to the point where I find myself reading things written by people I respect, and deciding that I'd be generally happier if I didn't read them. I could just unsubscribe from all the mailing lists, except that part of the fun of being involved in Debian was being part of a community. I don't want my only form of communication with the rest of the project to be limited to bug reports, especially when I find the development IRC channels as bad as the mailing lists.

It's interesting to compare Debian to Ubuntu in this respect, though the different ages of the projects make it difficult to draw any firm conclusions. The fairly rigidly enforced Ubuntu code of conduct probably helps a great deal in ensuring that discussions mostly remain technical. The distinction between core-dev and MOTU is a pretty explicit acknowledgment that not all developers are equal and some are possibly more worth listening to than others. And, at the end of the day, having one person who can make arbitrary decisions and whose word is effectively law probably helps in many cases.

There's a balance to be struck between organisational freedom and organisational effectiveness. I'm not convinced that Debian has that balance right as far as forming a working community goes. In that respect, Ubuntu's an experiment - does a more rigid structure and a greater willingness to enforce certain social standards result in a more workable community? In a few years, we ought to have an answer. I look forward to finding out.



Page 2 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

(92 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Another Example of Microsoft, RIAA, MPAA's infiltration
(Anonymous)
2006-09-04 06:54 am UTC (link)
GENTOO and most LINUX BULLETIN BOARDS have been INFILTRATED,
or are RUN BY THOSE OPPOSING LINUX.


One surprising thing I discovered along the way, is that some of the Gentoo group have an interest in "accidentally" making the installation process much more difficult than it need be. Let me relate the following incident.

In Gentoo 2005.0, the command emerge --usepkg kde installs the KDE desktop. However, this command does not work in 2005.1. To find out what gives, I registered with the Gentoo forum forums.gentoo.org. After some time I was told that a new command emerge --usepkg kde-meta had been introduced. Why a new command? Why not the natural old command, which after all, now has no purpose at all? I thought this rather strange, but stranger things were yet to come.

I imagined that a lot of people would be interested in this information and started a thread about it at the forum.

To my great surprise, it was deleted (well, actually, it was moved from the installation section, to some hidden corner of their site).


So I started another thread, with the same result. This time I was informed that the thread had been moved because the topic had been dealt with in some other post (that had also been quite deliberately hidden away from public view). I repeated this process some 7 or 8 times. Then they banned me.

Think about it, the Gentoo people were so desperate to remove my posts from view, that they hid 7 threads, using 7 times the disk space, rather than have one visible to the public.

Actually, the last thread was locked and it quietly sunk out of sight. Since it was doomed to be lost among unvisited/unread pages, the administration felt no need to move or delete it, as they had the other threads. Besides leaving the locked thread there for a few hours was "proof they were not involved in censorship."

So the Gentoo forum administration succeeded in hiding all threads related to the correct installation of KDE.

Some good did come from my persistence, however, as someone added the correct command to the Gentoo KDE installation page the next day. I know this because I saved copies of the page on successive days (just before, and just after, it was added). When last I looked, it had not been added to the installation manual.

There is plenty of evidence that certain Gentoo people are deliberately (and surreptitiously) crippling their product. Why might this be? Well, for an answer to that, you will have to ask them.

Wow, this is all even weirder than I at first imagined. I visited Ubuntu's forum, ubuntuforums.org, and started a thread which essentially just pointed to this page. Guess what? Yes, it was deleted. I re-posted it in another section and guess what? Yes, it was deleted again. In the end, I must have posted it there some 8 or 9 times, and 8 or 9 times, it is was deleted. I was then temporarily banned for, you guessed it, "spamming". How sick is that?

And I have just been banned from www.linuxforums.org/forum/ for posting it there just ONCE!

Quote from: http://linux.coconia.net/gentoo/2005.htm

Jade @ http://linux.coconia.net/

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Another Example of Microsoft, RIAA, MPAA's infiltration
(Anonymous)
2009-04-25 03:25 am UTC (link)
I don't know if it is deliberate or just incompetence but I pulled up the install instruction on my IMAC and then installed Gentoo on another machine while following those instruction and had problems. Not understanding what I had done wrong, I save the original instructions thinking I would try again later in the week. About two weeks later I finally got time to try again but pulled the instructions from the WWW site instead of using the copy I had saved. I had no problem building Gentoo.

Still not knowing what I had done wrong the first time, I compared the instructions that worked with the ones that didn't work. I found about 25 lines of instructions and procedures missing from the saved copy.

I will not say I think someone is sabotaging the install instructions... At least I hope they aren't. I think it more likely that the instructions are coming from multiple server in a round-robin DNS configuration and one of the servers has OLD or incomplete instructions and every 1 in (# of servers) number of requests is getting the bad info. v/r Tim

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Best wishes
(Anonymous)
2006-09-04 01:00 pm UTC (link)
I read your post and what i must say is that Debian is becoming like a very old instalation, with lots of entropy slowing the system. Ubuntu is newer and more responsive, with more clear ideas. I also think that Debian is to much fanatical about their guidelines. They should be a part of a system that can give the user the best software, clearely showing the rules of taking/using some solution instead of another. The last word must be to the common user, but without any small letters and hidden stuff.
Regards, Paulo (paulo@ppereira.net)

(Reply to this)

Specific Accusations are a Bad Idea (Re: Microsoft...)
(Anonymous)
2006-09-04 02:52 pm UTC (link)
I see that someone copied my post about Microsoft infiltrators from NewsForge to here (It's in the screened posts titled "Microsoft RIAA etc INFILTRATION" and "Re: Organizational setup is not the only issue"). I'm glad you liked it.

However, as I pointed out in that post, it is not a good idea to go around accusing people of being MS agents.

It is too easy to hit the wrong target.

It is too easy to mistake other things (errors, stubborness, ego, inexperience, and so on) as intentional badness.

Plus, the accusations just contribute to the negative atmosphere that the infiltrators want to create.

In my opinion, the proper (indeed, the only workable) approach is as follows:

1. Be aware that the infiltrators may be there.

2. Consider that possibility when confronted with an outrageously bad idea, especially when the same person always seems to be the source of the bad ideas.

But then...

3. Respond with positive action. Propose better ideas, and explain why they are better. Be polite and reasonable. Contribute to making the forum a nice place to visit. If you do that, then eventually, the true troublemakers will become obvious to everyone, by contrast, and they will become ineffective.

I think it is important to remind people of how Microsoft (and some others) operate, as I did in my original post. I think that being aware of the fact that someone may be purposely disrupting things makes it easier to ignore those disruptions, and focus on the positive progress, rather than becoming depressed about things (as the infiltrators intended). However, making specific allegations about a given event or person just causes problems (I speak from experience), and I advise against it.

(Reply to this)

Specific Accusations are a VERY GOOD Idea
(Anonymous)
2006-09-04 07:56 pm UTC (link)
Specific Accusations are an EXTREMELY GOOD Idea

The more Specific Accusations the better.

(Reply to this)

Best wishes
(Anonymous)
2006-09-05 02:58 pm UTC (link)
hahahaha, "makes me want to stab people", opps... I quit golfing for the a similar reason, I just wanted to hit golf balls at people... life seems better now... but I do make it out for 1 or 2 rounds a year... make sure you keep in touch with the 'community'... I'm sure you'll be missed

(Reply to this)

After the number...
(Anonymous)
2006-09-06 12:18 am UTC (link)
After the number you did on Paul Drain, of cipherfunk.org, all I can say is, "Good riddance!"

Reference: http://www.mepis.org/node/10965

(Reply to this)

Debian is Still the Greatest
(Anonymous)
2006-09-10 01:51 pm UTC (link)
Back in the day, I used quite a few different Linux distros. After some time, I've been convinced that Debian was the best, and still is. While it's nice to see that others have used Debian to do thier own thing, sometimes they seem mighty ungrateful. While you're busily predicting Debian's demise, I see it the other way around.

I predict that Debian will outlast all the other distros. It will continue on while the others hit finacial ruin. As long as people write and use free software, a disto based on the same ideals as these hackers will have a place. The only way Debian could be replaced is with a distro that did the same thing, only better. I, for one, don't see that happening.

The anarchic nature of Debian is it's greatest strength. It's second greatest strenght is it's refusal to slide down the slippery slope of proprietary software. The issue with Nvidia drivers and such is all Nvidia's fault. They won't release thier code, and that's thier right, but refusing to release technical specifications for thier hardware is moronic. Hardware is only of any use if software can be written to use it and refusing to release the information necessary to due so is ignorant or belligerant (your choice).

Debian has the most packages and you can't beat that for convience. When I discover some obscure program I want to try out, 98 times out of 100, there is already a deb. You can't say that about other distros. It also has a cutting edge distro (in the form of Sid) that has the latest, bleeding edge, code from many, many packages. If that's not to your taste, it has two varieties of more subdued offerings. And last, but not least, it supports more platforms than anything other than NetBSD. There are many lesser known architectures for wich Debian is the only full sized Linux distro availible.

Whith these strengths, I don't belive it's supposed weaknesses are unsurmountable. Especially when you consider that it's democracy and anarchy are not actually weaknesses, but further strengths.

(Reply to this)

Let me remind you......
(Anonymous)
2006-09-10 08:51 pm UTC (link)
"it's become clear to me that Debian doesn't really seem to know who or what it's for. "
As a Debian desktop user, I'd like to refresh your memory. Debian is for "Everybody". It's a General Purpose Computer Operating System for use as "Anything". I sense you want to work on something more focused. Go do it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Let me remind you......
[info]mjg59
2006-09-10 09:29 pm UTC (link)
No, I want to work on something that's actually useful, and there's a risk that Debian won't be in the future. Being acceptably good at everything doesn't give you broad appeal, it just means that your user base becomes mostly made up of people running customised derivations - either independent distributions like Knoppix or Ubuntu, or localised customisations for larger deployments. Some people are happy with that, and others aren't. Just saying "Oh, some guy writing a webpage made up something that said that Debian is for everybody, so it's all ok" isn't going to cut it if nobody's actually using the distribution.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Let me remind you......
(Anonymous)
2006-09-10 11:50 pm UTC (link)
It seems that all the derivations and localized customisations are frank evidence of Debian's *usefulness*. Anyone who uses Debian is going to customize locally to some degree --everyone has different needs! The people using spin-off 'distros' wouldn't be, were it not for Debian 'proper'.
As for "broad appeal", this isn't a popularity contest, and as far as I can tell, Debian and it's spin-offs have probably the *broadest possible* appeal among the Linux-based distros.
I've read a lot of your stuff, and for the life of me I just can't follow your thinking. Not that you owe it to anyone to help them understand you, but as a Debian 'fan' and home user, I'd really like to.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Let me remind you......
[info]mjg59
2006-09-11 12:14 am UTC (link)
Right, Debian certainly has a future following the "distribution supermarket" approach. The question is, do the developers want to follow that model?

A lot of people are involved in Debian because, at some level, they like seeing people making use of their work. A lot of the controversy over Ubuntu has demonstrated that the mere fact that someone is using your code via a derived distribution isn't the same as if they're using it directly. Joey Hess discusses this.

Keeping developers interested is the most important part of Debian, and if Debian isn't a compelling solution in itself then you're risking losing them. And if you want Debian to be a compelling solution, it needs to do things like, say, release software rather than argue at length over the precise definition of what that software is.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Let me remind you......
(Anonymous)
2006-09-12 02:30 am UTC (link)
Thanks for that link, I hadn't seen that.
Hess seems to share a lot of your perspectives on this. But it occurs to me that you both may be suffering from some form of 'distro envy'. Hess mentions the importance of "finding new ways to integrate our software together", and that just adding/maintaining packages isn't so interesting. Well, I know many people who actually resent "integration". Former Windows users to name some. I actually detest ubuntu and it's unified and integrated feel.
Some people, like the GNOME devs feel too much choice for the end user is a negative. I couldn't disagree more. The main reason I use Debian is that I can have my system exactly the way I want it easily thanks to the stellar package management. It's much easier to customize Debian the way I want than it is to customize ubuntu. I will rue the day Debian becomes as "easy to use" as ubuntu. IMO the GNOME devs (as an example) have made things MUCH more difficult to manage by trying to simplify --by catering too much to the (computer illiterate) end user. Put in a CD --some damned window pops up --"CDPlayer"??? wtf? How do I get rid of that? I never want to see that again!!!

Sorry for the rant, I'm just trying to emphasize Debians value to me: that it's Vanilla. It doesn't make too many decisions for me. What if I don't want an SELinux kernel? What if I hate Xen? What if I loathe the idea of a "default desktop"? Currently, Debian gives me freedom. ubuntu does not!
At the end of the day, ubuntu is simply advertizing for Debian... Many people will be drawn to "The Real Thing" eventually. Especially as Etch approaches and improves the end user experience. I don't see it as playing catch-up. I see it as doing things methodically, and Right, ...The Debian Way. People who want bling-bling AND trivial ease-of-use are the LAST people that idealistic, RMS-loving devs should consider (not that I'm anti-bling --running e16 on etch).

You mentioned: "Keeping developers interested is the most important part of Debian," --seriously. That's crazy-talk. The most important parts of Debian are the DFSG, its Social Contract, and the general philosophy behind this amazing, corporate-free socio-technical phenomenon. There will I hope always be developers who see the value of vanilla, and see also that in many ways, Debian is WAY more glamorous to be involved with that any ubuntu could ever be.
Anyway, good luck to ya and thanks for hearing me out.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Let me remind you......
[info]mjg59
2006-09-12 02:36 am UTC (link)
Without developers, there is no Debian. No DFSG. No social contract.

(To answer your question - system/preferences/removable drives and media/multimedia/untick "play audio CD discs when inserted". Not especially difficult)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Let me remind you......
(Anonymous)
2006-09-26 03:48 am UTC (link)
Don't even start to talk about user experience. Software developers that force preferences to end-users doesn't have the right to talk about user experience (GPL v3, Debian's and Gentoo's stubborn subset of the FOSS community).

FOSS developers that insist on writting personal "free" manifestos and believing that software can be "corrupted" because of the use of closed source have forgotten the fact that an executable binary is always readable to a machine/computer but not to a coder. Source Code is readable to a coder but not to an end user. The point is that end users never see the so called freedom in the form of source code, they see it in the way they use open standards, chose the distro, the desktop environment and the apps they prefer.

You think ease-of-use is trivial? Have you noticed that each time you reinvent the wheel -in code-, type an obscure script in the CLI or recompile a kernel or any application, you're being forced to think like a computer? Do you enjoy losing time of your life?

Without usable interfaces, ease-of-use, user-friendliness, look 'n feel, efficient and simple human-machine interaction you are not using a Personal Computer. You're using a Computer.

...or the Computer is using you (in a way). "Social Manifestos" & Freedom... it's more slavery to the Computer/Machine.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Let me remind you......
(Anonymous)
2006-09-26 03:51 am UTC (link)
"What if I don't want an SELinux kernel? What if I hate Xen? What if I loathe the idea of a "default desktop"? Currently, Debian gives me freedom. ubuntu does not!"

rm -r /
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<w/e>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

"What if I don't want an SELinux kernel? What if I hate Xen? What if I loathe the idea of a "default desktop"? Currently, Debian gives me freedom. ubuntu does not!"

rm -r /<w/e package>

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Let me remind you......
(Anonymous)
2006-09-26 03:54 am UTC (link)
"At the end of the day, ubuntu is simply advertizing for Debian... Many people will be drawn to "The Real Thing" eventually. Especially as Etch approaches and improves the end user experience. I don't see it as playing catch-up. I see it as doing things methodically, and Right, ...The Debian Way. People who want bling-bling AND trivial ease-of-use are the LAST people that idealistic, RMS-loving devs should consider (not that I'm anti-bling --running e16 on etch)."

so the idealistic FOSS developer is an egotistical coder that doesn't think on end users?

"The most important parts of Debian are the DFSG, its Social Contract, and the general philosophy behind this amazing, corporate-free socio-technical phenomenon. There will I hope always be developers who see the value of vanilla, and see also that in many ways, Debian is WAY more glamorous to be involved with that any ubuntu could ever be."

glamour, phenomenon, value, etc are subjective ideals that has nothing to do with technical development.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Let me remind you......
(Anonymous)
2007-02-23 02:26 am UTC (link)
The greatest and easiest way to defeat an enemy is to have it fight among itself. All the infighting about what distrobution is the best is killing us and the devil (Microsoft) knows this, so please linux in itself no matter what distro it is, is great.....

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Let me remind you......
(Anonymous)
2007-02-23 02:39 am UTC (link)
The greatest and easiest way to defeat an enemy is to have it fight among itself. All the infighting about what distrobution is the best is killing us and the devil (Microsoft) knows this, so please stop the arguments. linux in itself no matter what distro it is, is great.....

(Reply to this) (Parent)

One Litl Girl Let's Speak about English
(Anonymous)
2006-12-07 08:36 pm UTC (link)
I'm Ann,
from Singapore,
and I'm 21 y.o

Hi, All
I've studied English sinse Summer .
It's so hard Language!
I would like like to meet handsome gays and girls and practisice My English with them.

Thank You

(Reply to this)

cialis levitra viagra vs
(Anonymous)
2007-02-15 02:37 pm UTC (link)
MESSAGE

(Reply to this)

My favourite pharma supermarket hworld-pharma.pillsfm.com
(Anonymous)
2008-03-19 10:40 pm UTC (link)
My favourite pharma supermarket
world-pharma.pillsfm.com
WBR,
Alex

(Reply to this)


[info]dametori
2008-09-27 03:25 am UTC (link)
just go through your submission and others comments...well mat, take care you need to come over to the east coast for a beer..wish u a bright future...

Dametori
download psp games

(Reply to this)


(92 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Page 2 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…