Matthew Garrett ([info]mjg59) wrote,
@ 2006-08-28 22:11:00
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I resigned from Debian today.

It wasn't actually any one thing. But over the past few weeks (months? Years?) it's become clear to me that Debian doesn't really seem to know who or what it's for. Arguments erupt over whether something is a deeply held principle or an accident of phrasing on the website; whether we should release more often or less often; whether free software is more important than our users having functional hardware. And, depressingly, these debates generally seem to turn into pedantic point scoring and insults and yes, I'm probably as guilty as many others in this respect. But it's got to the point where social interaction with Debian-the-distribution makes me want to stab people, even though I've just spent a lovely weekend with Debian-the-people. Perhaps worse, I occasionally find mails I've sent that make me want to stab me.

So it's got to the point where I find myself reading things written by people I respect, and deciding that I'd be generally happier if I didn't read them. I could just unsubscribe from all the mailing lists, except that part of the fun of being involved in Debian was being part of a community. I don't want my only form of communication with the rest of the project to be limited to bug reports, especially when I find the development IRC channels as bad as the mailing lists.

It's interesting to compare Debian to Ubuntu in this respect, though the different ages of the projects make it difficult to draw any firm conclusions. The fairly rigidly enforced Ubuntu code of conduct probably helps a great deal in ensuring that discussions mostly remain technical. The distinction between core-dev and MOTU is a pretty explicit acknowledgment that not all developers are equal and some are possibly more worth listening to than others. And, at the end of the day, having one person who can make arbitrary decisions and whose word is effectively law probably helps in many cases.

There's a balance to be struck between organisational freedom and organisational effectiveness. I'm not convinced that Debian has that balance right as far as forming a working community goes. In that respect, Ubuntu's an experiment - does a more rigid structure and a greater willingness to enforce certain social standards result in a more workable community? In a few years, we ought to have an answer. I look forward to finding out.



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(Anonymous)
2006-08-28 10:43 pm UTC (link)
Best wishes for the future. :]

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]rawy
2007-03-18 04:40 pm UTC (link)
It may be irritating when you dont know what! this always happen
be happy

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]7wrc, 2007-05-02 04:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sharaf_maksumov, 2007-04-16 08:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]elenamussy, 2007-04-26 10:12 am UTC
But without debian ubuntu couldn't exist
(Anonymous)
2006-08-28 11:08 pm UTC (link)
-

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: But without debian ubuntu couldn't exist
[info]mjg59
2006-08-28 11:33 pm UTC (link)
At the moment, yes, that's absolutely true.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]reddragdiva
2006-08-28 11:10 pm UTC (link)
AIUI this happened many years ago. Can't they even unite against the COMMON ENEMY? That being UBUNTU of course. Can't have a cult without a good demon figure, that's basic sociology.

I'm sure Ubuntu will suck soon enough as well. It happens.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]broonie
2006-08-28 11:21 pm UTC (link)

AIUI this happened many years ago. Can't they even unite against the COMMON ENEMY? That being UBUNTU of course.


There's some people making determined efforts in that regard, it has to be said.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]reddragdiva, 2006-08-28 11:26 pm UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]camiwoxim, 2008-07-16 01:54 am UTC

[info]ajaxxx
2006-08-29 12:37 am UTC (link)
Is there a betting pool on how long it'll take for your blog(s) to come off Planet Debian?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]fooishbar
2006-08-29 07:18 am UTC (link)
Mine's still there, close to three months later.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jmtd, 2006-08-29 09:18 am UTC

[info]spyderous
2006-08-29 01:42 am UTC (link)
Interesting that this is damn near the same thing happening in Gentoo now, although to a lesser extent (thus far). I think we're at a point where it's still fixable, though, so that's where I'm focusing my efforts.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


(Anonymous)
2006-08-31 08:10 pm UTC (link)
I was gonna write the same thing. I think its only milder in Gentoo because we are not as many or as old as Debian. But we will end up getting there if we dont react soon. And frankly, I'm not sure we are going to succeed. -- Tester (another Gentoo dev)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-09-02 03:14 am UTC
Maybe not - (Anonymous), 2006-09-03 12:13 am UTC
Re: Maybe not - [info]gnea, 2006-09-03 08:24 am UTC
Re: Maybe not - (Anonymous), 2006-09-03 04:18 pm UTC

[info]gethen
2006-08-29 02:33 am UTC (link)
KITTIES FOR ALL!!!

(Reply to this)

Leaving Debian ?
(Anonymous)
2006-08-29 07:32 am UTC (link)
You bastard ! I'm really sorry to see you leave - it has been good to be associated with you, read smart comments and watch flamewars. I know you'll
carry all that to Ubuntu a.ka. "Debian for desktops" in your words IIRC :)
Take care and have fun. Hope CU Linux Expo Olympia

Andy (amacater@galactic.demon.co.uk / debian.org)

(Reply to this)


[info]infinity
2006-08-29 08:02 am UTC (link)
I'm approaching this point myself, so I can feel your pain. I argue for the sake of argument now, even when I have no idea which side of which debate I actually live on. I contribute very little, because the actions of my co-volunteers have irritated me to the point where it's no longer fun.

I can't even maintain my level of involvement for idealistic reasons, because everything else has overwhelmed me to the point where giving up my ideals just to get the hell away from it all sounds like a pretty keen idea.

(Reply to this)

Thanks...
[info]amayita
2006-08-29 12:00 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the fish.

(Reply to this)


[info]pjc50
2006-08-29 03:30 pm UTC (link)
That's a shame.

(Reply to this)

we will miss you
(Anonymous)
2006-08-29 06:39 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for your contribution to Debian. Even as you leave, i hope to see you at next years Debconf.

zobel

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]nicasoly
2008-07-16 04:35 pm UTC (link)
Place a 2 in the brackets next to your next choice. Continue until you reach your last choice. Do not enter a number smaller than 1 or larger than 3.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]fvinnash
2006-08-31 04:20 am UTC (link)
Does that mean, since you're no longer a Debian developer, and thus, not required to maintain a proper and well-respected presence on the internet, you're going to participate in more LiveJournal-like themes like what anime character are you? Because I've always wondered what anime character you are.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mjg59
2006-08-31 10:33 am UTC (link)
Don't make me hurt you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Reply from suspended user)

[info]madaussie
2006-09-01 08:56 pm UTC (link)
hey mat, take care mate! -stu/df (you need to come over to the east coast for a beer :), its not like london but eh...)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(Reply from suspended user)

(Reply from suspended user)
Mandriva too
(Anonymous)
2006-09-01 09:35 pm UTC (link)
This same kind of mud-slinging anti-everyone behaviour has been prevalent in Mandriva for a while too.

I'm starting to think that these "by the community, for the community" distros are slowly tearing themselves apart. I've thought many times over the last few years of saying goodbye to Mandriva but I work for them and a man has to eat so I put up with the BS, but it's still tough. And driving me to drink (I wonder if that's a good thing?)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

good luck
(Anonymous)
2006-09-02 05:14 am UTC (link)
Hi...

I'm an Ubuntu user, just one ubuntu user, a linux magazine translator and a linux enthusiast... and I've seen Debian being born, developing and growing, forking, sleeping and now... in agony.

Through the years, Debian has been doing a lot of good, and a fair deal of being boring and annoying some times too. It's own nature was calling for this kind of things from the beginning.

It's hard to say, but no matter how good and utopian "anarchy" or "direct democracy" is, everything tends to work better with some authority that can make everyone that is under it truly equal. This doesn't need to be a dictatorship by any means, but things work better with some kind of leader (even a temporary one) that can tell people things that they don't want to hear.

That didn't exist in Debian, hence instead of a real democracy it turned out to be a multi-faceted dictatorship of many too-proud individuals and self-proclaimed gurus. The amount of work done and its achievements are fantastic, but everything has to come to an end to get rid of the junk and start new, more fresh things... to put everybody in its place.

Only very small groups for a very short time can survive with the kind of structure that Debian has. It's calling for an end. I think, (and please don't flame me, it's not my intention to offend anyone...) that the project has reached its aims already a long time ago, and could perfectly be finished and its members split and create some new projects, that can bring illusion back to them and to the community, avoiding us, and themselves, a lot of headaches.

Debian doesn't have any appeal to so many people any more as it once did. It has become un-modern, un-friendly, and too far from reality... and other projects have surpassed it in many ways. Some of them have benefited from Debian's experience a great deal... but that's the whole point with Open Source Software. Debian's great heads should move on. Give us something to look forward to.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: good luck - (Anonymous), 2006-09-02 08:16 am UTC
Re: good luck - (Anonymous), 2006-09-02 08:25 am UTC
Re: good luck - (Anonymous), 2006-09-04 03:35 am UTC
Another ubuntu user here.
[info]reduz
2006-09-02 08:38 am UTC (link)
I have been using Debian since '97, and by this point I consider myself a very advanced user on the distro.
I always used it not because "how awesome it was", but because i just found apt-get (and the huge repo) to be extremely useful, as well as the nice and super flexible installer.

That said, I switched to Ubuntu some months ago and I'm extremely happy.
Why? It's not like I dont know how to configure a debian system to be exactly like ubuntu.. but the following reasons happened:

a) First and most importantly, ubuntu has the "best combination of packages" . When in debian, I was always found that I just couldnt have the combination of packages/versions I wanted. Often things are too outdated on "testing", but too unstable on.. "unstable". In ubuntu, the release cycles help me to have up to date stuff and package version combinations that will most certainly work and be tested/fixed otherwise.. Also, this wonderful thing from ubuntu makes it able for developers to post .deb files that actually will work when downloaded, since they can post one for breezy, then another for dapper, etc... and not one for every package combination.

b) Ubuntu is less restrictive than debian on license issues, so without extra repositories, I can install mplayer, java, flash, vmware, nvidia drivers, etc.

c) Ubuntu posts interesting packages of upcoming technologies (like xgl) for everyone to try.

d) Ubuntu just simply saves me the overall system configuring/setup, it installs nicely to a desktop and it works.

That said I still use debian for server boxes, where I dont need all the desktop stuff of Ubuntu. But to me, Ubuntu is everything I always wanted..
a desktop sepcialized, debian compatible, linux distro.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Another ubuntu user here.
(Anonymous)
2006-09-02 09:53 am UTC (link)
You forget.

a) ubuntu has a lack of Quality assurance

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Another ubuntu user here. - [info]20khz, 2006-09-02 10:55 am UTC
Mepis = Ubuntu derivative - [info]funkyware, 2006-09-02 07:58 pm UTC
Re: Mepis = Ubuntu derivative - [info]20khz, 2006-09-03 09:03 am UTC
Re: Another ubuntu user here. - (Anonymous), 2006-09-03 07:03 pm UTC
Re: Another ubuntu user here. - (Anonymous), 2006-09-03 07:14 pm UTC
Re: Another ubuntu user here. - (Anonymous), 2006-09-04 03:12 am UTC
Re: Another ubuntu user here. - (Anonymous), 2006-09-04 09:01 pm UTC
Re: Another ubuntu user here. - (Anonymous), 2006-09-07 02:51 am UTC
Re: Another ubuntu user here. - (Anonymous), 2006-09-23 11:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]carrietukej, 2008-07-16 01:13 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
Some Debain package maintainers look like fools.
(Anonymous)
2006-09-02 11:59 am UTC (link)
If you want to see some problems with Debain,... see this article:

3D Acceleration for ATI cards (works for SuSE, Mandriva and Debian)

at http://m.domaindlx.com/LinuxHelp/ati/ati.htm

Some Debain package maintainers look like fools.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Some Debain package maintainers look like fools.
(Anonymous)
2006-09-02 10:52 pm UTC (link)
Somebody needs to be taught about apt-get source.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Some Debain package maintainers look like fools. - (Anonymous), 2006-09-03 03:23 am UTC
Some Debain package maintainers look like fools.
(Anonymous)
2006-09-02 12:02 pm UTC (link)
If you want to see some problems with Debain,... see this article:

3D Acceleration for ATI cards (works for SuSE, Mandriva and Debian)

at http://m.domaindlx.com/LinuxHelp/ati/ati.htm (http://m.domaindlx.com/LinuxHelp/ati/ati.htm)

Some Debain package maintainers look like fools.

(Reply to this)

You beat the ones you love...
(Anonymous)
2006-09-03 06:32 am UTC (link)
...according to a Swedish saying. Flamewars can be great fun if you know that and who takes the VI/Emacs-debate seriously? If you do... well don't blame someone else. Debian can, and hopefully will, improve in many aspects. If you don't want to improve then Debian is probably better off without you. Good luck.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: You beat the ones you love...
(Anonymous)
2006-09-03 09:07 am UTC (link)
vi,kde(velop),c++ rocks

emacs,gnome,java sucks...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Debian is the new Apple...
(Anonymous)
2006-09-03 08:44 am UTC (link)
ie, it'll be dead within a year...

;)

(Reply to this)


[info]mvenugopal
2006-09-03 03:07 pm UTC (link)
Matt,

It is interesting to see how community based software development evolves. Would a very loosely structured, non-hierarchical development pattern sustain over time? or would any type of long term development require some sort of hierarchy and formalism (like commercial systems)? It does feel that in order to prevent flame wars and "ideological discussions" that go nowhere, some sort of formalism is required (even in the face of being labelled "you're a fascist!").

Maybe the answer is "depends" or "42" whichever suits.

good luck.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

middle ground
(Anonymous)
2006-09-03 07:33 pm UTC (link)
There's a middle ground between chaotic democracy and dictatorial heirarchical control. How about a heirarchical representational system? Groups of developers with common interests elect representatives and the reps choose a leader or something like that. I don't know how debian works now, maybe it's close to this model.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Screened Post)
Microsoft RIAA etc INFILTRATION (from Newsforge)
(Anonymous)
2006-09-04 02:28 am UTC (link)
I sympathize, and agree that you must do what is necessary to protect your mental well-being.

It's unfortunate, but probably true, that part of what has driven you to take this step has been activity by Microsoft astroturfers.

We all know that Microsoft is a company that will do anything to protect their monopoly position. That includes breaking the law by, among other things, committing fraud and sabotage. Consider, for example, Microsoft's past involvement in undermining WordPerfect, or the OpenGL standards development. Or, look at Microsoft's attempt to sabotage Java, in their own words, to "Kill cross-platform Java by grow[ing] the polluted Java market." Or, look at Microsoft's payments to SCO, and various "pretending to be independent" political action groups, such as the Alexis de Tocqueville Institute.

So, years ago (probably 1998), when Microsoft held a strategy meeting on how to stop Linux, someone would have proposed the following idea:

> Infiltrate Open Source Development Teams and...
> - submit polluted (e.g. broken) code
> - push complexity and bad ideas
> - create dependencies on proprietary software
> - slow down progress in general
> - make life miserable for other developers
> - argue every minor detail, disrupt discussions
> - be pedantic about OSS concepts
> - polarize every discussion -> no common sense
> - hound and drive out the best developers


We know that Linux threatens to take a multi-billion dollar market away from Microsoft.

And we know that Microsoft has no morality, and little fear of the law.

And so, Microsoft would have chosen not to follow the above strategy... why? Because it's not nice?

We see Microsoft astroturfers at work all the time, writing FUD articles, or posting obvious lies in various forums.

Thus, I take it as a given that Microsoft has people involved with the most major Open Source projects, trying to do exactly as suggested above.

As some have pointed out, it can be difficult to interfere with a project such as Ubuntu, where a benevolent dictator can identify and kick out the troublemakers.

But it is relatively easier to infiltrate a highly democratic project, such as Debian.

Likewise, I expect that Microsoft has people in the FSF. Those people would not be arguing against Free Software, on the contrary, they would appear as the most extreme supporters of FSF principles. They would attempt, for example, to make GPL3 so extreme as to prevent its success in commercial venues, as they may have previously succeeded in making the FSF's .Net replacement unusable in business, through overly-strict licensing.

Unfortunately, sabotage has always been one of Microsoft's most effective weapons. While Microsoft's technical incompetence is such that they have never defeated a strong competitor through actual competition, various acts of sabotage have allowed Microsoft to come out ahead against DR_DOS, Geoworks, WordPerfect, OS/2, Go, AmiPro, Netscape, and Java, among others.

Continued below

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Organizational setup is not the only issue - (Anonymous), 2006-09-04 02:29 am UTC
Well....
(Anonymous)
2006-09-04 02:11 am UTC (link)
I liked your posts on debian mailing. :)

Seriously, you made some good points. Sorry you're leaving, good work, and I hope the situation gets better.

(Reply to this)

(Screened Post)
Re: Microsoft, RIAA, MPAA's infiltration of LINUX
(Anonymous)
2006-09-04 04:10 am UTC (link)
Oh, whatever.

Microsoft doenst have to fight nasty against linux. They just simply ignore it at the front end, and spread some FUD. They dont need to fight at the "secret agent" level.

Projects like this have issues that were noticed by ancient greek philosophers. Aristotle gave insights into pure democracy that effected the authors of the Constituion of the United States.

Effectivly, he noted that democracy falls apart until it hits chaos. And a "republic" -- or any system with "important" people at the top that have more decision making power eventually become tyrants.

they tried to mix the two, and add the bill of rights. Did it work? Good question. Do the decision makers make decisions for us? Do the masses still resort to chaos?

if you belive the bible, God told the israelites that having a king would be ok if they always had a benevolent, righteous king (who followed God) -- but kings come and go, and sooner or later, you get a jerk.

Any and all systems of leadership have more to do with the people involved, and less to do with what organization is "best" a whole herd of idiots can ruin a democracy, and a jerk leader can ruin a repulblic.

pick your poison, but organization is cerainly better than "everyoe roll your own open source linux, and lets not work together at all." That is certainly not effective.

-my 2 cents

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Example of Microsoft, RIAA, MPAA's infiltration
(Anonymous)
2006-09-04 04:23 am UTC (link)
To sort out the install mess, execute the following commands:

cd /usr/src/
mv kernel-headers-2.6.8-3 linux-2.6.8-3-k7
tar cf kernel-headers-2.6.8-3.tar linux-2.6.8-3-k7
rm -fr linux-2.6.8-3-k7

(go to the directory /usr/src/)
(the move ensures the tar archive will unpack into linux-2.6.8-3-k7)
(creates tar archive named kernel-headers-2.6.8-3.tar)
(removes unneeded directory and contents)

mv kernel-headers-2.6.8-3-k7 linux-2.6.8-3-k7
tar cf kernel-headers-2.6.8-3-k7.tar linux-2.6.8-3-k7
rm -fr linux-2.6.8-3-k7

(the move ensures the tar archive will unpack into linux-2.6.8-3-k7)
(creates tar archive named kernel-headers-2.6.8-3-k7.tar)
(removes unneeded directory and contents)

tar xjf kernel-source-2.6.8.tar.bz2
mv kernel-source-2.6.8 linux-2.6.8-k7

(unpacks main kernel source)
(move main kernel source to linux-2.6.8-k7)

tar xf kernel-headers-2.6.8-3.tar
tar xf kernel-headers-2.6.8-3-k7.tar

(unpack kernel-headers-2.6.8-3.tar into linux-2.6.8-k7)
(unpack kernel-headers-2.6.8-3-k7.tar into linux-2.6.8-k7)

In summary, the directories of header files are repacked so that they will unpack into linux-2.6.8-3-k7. The kernel-source-2.6.8.tar.bz2 package is unpacked and moved to linux-2.6.8-3-k7. The tarred kernel-header directories, also unpack into linux-2.6.8-3-k7 and the sources are reintegrated.

By the way, the name linux-2.6.8-3-k7 was chosen simply because the command uname -r returned 2.6.8-3-k7.

Well, fine and good, so far. But the nightmare is not quite over.

The Debian packagers have "accidentally" forgotten a necessary link and have another pointing to some random place. To fix these "oversights" do the following:


cd /lib/modules/2.6.8-3-k7
rm -fr boot source
ln -s /usr/src/linux-2.6.8-3-k7 boot
ln -s /usr/src/linux-2.6.8-3-k7 source

Now you can continue with the ATI driver installation as above (tested on Debian Sarge).

Of course, you will have to adjust the kernel versions in the above to reflect your situation. You may also ask some Debian person for the name of the script (assuming it exists) that reassembles the unnecessarily split kernel sources. Of course, this script should be automatically run, when the kernel sources are installed.

Remember, that with SuSE or Mandriva, the kernel-sources can be installed with one or two clicks.

You may wish to speculate, as to the reasons the Debian packagers are deliberately making things difficult for you.

From http://m.domaindlx.com/LinuxHelp/ati/ati.htm

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Example of Microsoft, RIAA, MPAA's infiltration
(Anonymous)
2006-09-04 05:28 am UTC (link)
Why did you type all that shit?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Nonsense... - (Anonymous), 2006-09-22 07:55 pm UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

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