Matthew Garrett ([info]mjg59) wrote,
@ 2009-07-16 01:13:00
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Entry tags:advogato, fedora

RMS and virgins
Many of the comments here and here are disheartening, but part of the problem is that many people didn't see the presentation. Dave linked to a previous iteration of the same presentation[1]. Here's a transcription (errors are mine and mine alone):

I am Saint Ignucius of the church of emacs. I bless your computer, my child. Emacs started out as a text editor. An extensible text editor, which became a way of life for many users because it was extended so much they could do all their computing work without ever exiting from emacs. And then, it became a religion, with the launch of the newsgroup alt.religion.emacs. Tday in the church of emacs we have a great schism between several rival versions of emacs, and we also have saints. But fortunately no god, instead of gods we worship an editor. To be a member of the chuch of emacs, you must recite the confession of the faith. You must say there is no system but gnu, and linux is one of its kernels.

Then if you become a hacker you can celebrate that by having a foobar mitzvah, a ceremony in which the new hacker stands in front of the assembled congregation of hackers and chants through the lines of the system source code. And we also have the cult of the virgin of emacs. The virgin of emacs is any female who has not yet learned how to use emacs. And in the church of emacs we believe that taking her emacs virginity away is a blessed act.

The church of emacs has certain advantages compared with with other churches I won't mention. For instance, to be a saint in the church of emacs does not require celibacy. Although for some of us hackers we wouldn't notice the difference. But it does require living a life of moral purity. You must exorcise whatever proprietary evil operating systems have posessed the computers under your control or set up for your use and then install a wholy free operating system and then only install free software on the system. If you make that vow and you live by it then you too will be a saint, and you too will have the right to wear a halo. If you can find one, because they don't make them any more.

Sometimes people ask me whether it a sin in the church of emacs to use the other editor, vi. It's true that vi vi vi is the editor of the beast. But using a free implementation of vi is not a sin, it's a penance. And sometimes people will ask whether my halo is really an old computer disk. This is no computer disk, this is my halo! But it was a computer disk in a previous life. So thank you very much.


One of the frequent counterarguments against this being sexist is that RMS has often spoken out against sexism (see here, for example). It's very easy to claim to be free of sexism. It's much harder to perform the degree of introspection required to understand whether any of your actions are motivated by viewing genders differently. Do I believe that Richard is attempting to deliberately denigrate women? Not in the slightest. But I also don't believe that someone entirely gender-blind would have made the above joke.

My point here isn't to claim that he's a bad person as a result. I've got personality flaws large enough that you could probably drive a bus through them, but I'd be slightly upset if people thought I was evil because of them. My point is that nobody is above criticism, and if someone behaves in a way that offends a large subset of the community then they should to be criticised. Failing to do so sends the signal that we don't care about those who were offended, and at the same time provides no incentive for people to change their behaviour as a result. And yes, I think those who have high profile positions in the community should be held to higher standards than others - Richard's comments on Mono carry more weight because of who he is, but the cost of this is that everything else he says does as well. And if one of our nominal leaders is perceived as sexist then that reflects badly on all of us.

[1] Note that his GCDS presentation did not entirely consist of this routine - there was also significant discussion of Mono and why he believes that adopting it is dangerous. I don't entirely disagree with him, but that's really not the point here. I'm not involved in any Mono development. I work for a company that ships Mono in the community distribution it supports, but not in the enterprise distribution that pays my wages. If anyone brings up Mono in any comments here they'll be blocked and the thread deleted, because it is not relevant to this discussion.




(126 comments) - (Post a new comment)

I don't get it
[info]macemoneta.myopenid.com
2009-07-16 02:07 am UTC (link)
Maybe I'm short on caffeine today, but I'm not seeing what is denigrating women in the above. I'm male, and have been referred to as a virgin in many things before I learned them. Is that the denigrating term? I guess I never thought of as such. The definition I associate with the use is (from tfd.com): 'happening for the first time; initial'.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I don't get it
[info]mjg59
2009-07-16 02:13 am UTC (link)
Firstly, there's the stereotyping of women as being the ones who haven't used emacs before and need to be helped. The implication is that they're incapable of managing themselves. The second implication is that it's the job of men to do that, given that it's generally men who relieve women of their virginity. That's a pretty obvious set of gender roles. It's not helped by the sexually loaded language - I'm entirely unconvinced by the argument that this is purely a reference to religion, given that he seems to be referring to Mary and it's certainly not catholic doctrine for people to relieve her of her virginity!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I don't get it - [info]joe_buck, 2009-07-16 02:15 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 02:19 am UTC
The Church of Emacs is a parody - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 03:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ronebofh, 2009-07-16 03:27 am UTC
Re: The Church of Emacs is a parody - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 03:30 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 03:28 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 03:31 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 03:44 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]maco.myopenid.com, 2009-07-16 03:50 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 03:54 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 04:27 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 04:40 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 05:02 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 05:16 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 05:22 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 05:24 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 05:39 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 06:07 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 06:13 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 06:33 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]pjc50, 2009-07-16 08:31 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 01:48 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]pjc50, 2009-07-16 02:00 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 03:13 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 10:51 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]dnivie, 2009-07-16 12:16 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]makomk, 2009-07-16 03:44 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 03:48 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]makomk, 2009-07-16 04:39 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 04:45 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]kaizer.se, 2009-07-16 12:40 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]stsquad, 2009-07-16 07:38 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]reddragdiva, 2009-07-17 04:27 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 03:16 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]macemoneta.myopenid.com, 2009-07-16 06:35 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 07:50 am UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]jimbojones, 2009-07-16 03:02 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]lnr, 2009-07-16 03:10 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]jimbojones, 2009-07-16 03:23 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 03:32 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]jimbojones, 2009-07-16 03:36 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 03:40 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]lnr, 2009-07-16 03:34 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 03:43 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]jimbojones, 2009-07-16 03:48 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 04:19 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - [info]jimbojones, 2009-07-16 04:37 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-17 02:02 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-19 11:38 pm UTC
Re: I don't get it - (Anonymous), 2009-07-20 09:08 am UTC
Re: I don't get it
[info]opensourcetogo.blogspot.com
2009-07-16 07:01 pm UTC (link)
Chani made a good comment explaining what a big part of the problem is on her blog (http://chani.wordpress.com/2009/07/14/rms-emacs-virgins/):
talking about relieving women of their virginity casts women in a submissive role, with men in a dominant role, and brings up thoughts of oppression and (indirectly) rape. (yes, thinking about a roomful of guys thinking about taking womens’ virginity does eventually lead me to wondering how many of them would take it by force.) it becomes less about the non-sexual meaning of “virgin” and more about all the crazy ideas societies have had about virgin women. and thinking about that stuff would make any woman uncomfortable.


Do you get that...?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

female GCC contributors
[info]joe_buck
2009-07-16 02:13 am UTC (link)
It's unfortunate that RMS falsely thinks that there aren't female contributors to GCC. The contributions of Janis Johnson, who maintains much of the testing infrastructure, and Dorit Nuzman, who made major constributions to loop scheduling and vectorization, have been particularly significant, but there have been a number of other female GCC contributors over the years (Sandra Loosemore and Carolyn Tice in particular).

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: female GCC contributors
[info]damned_colonial
2009-07-16 04:13 am UTC (link)
Thanks for these names. I've added them to the list of women in open source.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: female GCC contributors - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 08:39 am UTC
Re: female GCC contributors - [info]puzzlement, 2009-07-16 09:20 am UTC
Re: female GCC contributors - [info]damned_colonial, 2009-07-16 04:29 pm UTC
Re: female GCC contributors - [info]mobbsy, 2009-07-16 10:04 am UTC
Re: female GCC contributors - [info]damned_colonial, 2009-07-16 04:30 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2009-07-16 02:35 am UTC (link)
Fuck, after reading Stallman's criminal joke in context it's obvious that it's completely fucking harmless. Maybe crass, but not sexist at all.

And of course genders are viewed differently. Welcome to reality.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mjg59
2009-07-16 02:39 am UTC (link)
Where did I say they weren't? My point was that having an absolute rational belief that you're not sexist doesn't make it true. Nobody is capable of avoiding it entirely, but if you respond to criticism with "I'm not sexist" rather than actually considering the complaint then, well, you're probably engaging in sexist behaviour some proportion of the time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 03:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 03:16 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 03:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 03:42 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 03:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 03:55 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 04:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-16 04:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pjc50, 2009-07-16 08:51 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 01:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 03:22 am UTC
exactly - [info]maco.myopenid.com, 2009-07-16 03:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]opensourcetogo.blogspot.com, 2009-07-16 07:04 pm UTC
You said they weren't... - [info]gerv.net, 2009-07-17 02:51 pm UTC
Re: You said they weren't... - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-17 02:55 pm UTC
Nobody thinks they are sexist/racist/*ist - (Anonymous), 2009-08-21 07:28 am UTC
Funnier?
(Anonymous)
2009-07-16 08:23 am UTC (link)
Am I the only one who thinks the joke actually becomes funnier if one makes it gender neutral? (Note: I don't think the joke's that funny to begin with, nor do I think this modification makes the joke very funny) It points out not only the sexism and gender roles implied in various religions, but it also mocks the homophobia of those same religions.

«And we also have the cult of the virgin of emacs. The virgin of emacs is any man or woman who has not yet learned how to use emacs. And in the church of emacs we believe that taking that persons emacs virginity away is a blessed act.»

Maybe joking about homosexuality isn't everyones cup of tea, though.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Funnier?
(Anonymous)
2009-07-16 10:40 am UTC (link)
I think the whole piece is pretty unfunny. Self-deprecation is always good to have, but a rehearsed, egomaniac, lame parody that is given at any occasion is not my blend of humor. The free software community would be much more inviting if they could appreciate the difference between Stallman's performance transcribed above and an actually entertaining presentation.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Funnier? - [info]jimbojones, 2009-07-16 03:12 pm UTC
Re: Funnier?
[info]lnr
2009-07-16 10:48 am UTC (link)
*ahem* Just because a man might be an emacs virgin too doesn't mean that taking that virginity away is necessarily anything to do with homosexuality.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Funnier? - [info]jimbojones, 2009-07-16 03:06 pm UTC
Re: Funnier?
[info]aigarius
2009-07-16 06:25 pm UTC (link)
Well, a woman coder could do the introductions for males. (you chauvinist pig :D )

The joke is funny and it only gains from just removing the word 'female' and making it gender neutral. There are reports that sometimes RMS does the joke in a gender neutral way as well, so I tend to think that it is more of a mental slip-up than in insult.

There have been several flamewars about sexism in free software community and after getting to the root of things most of them were severely blown out of proportion. I think that feminist movement is actually harmed by each and every one of these discussions, because it reinforces the stereotype that women tend to argue more than men about little or insignificant things.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Funnier? - [info]infinity, 2009-07-16 07:01 pm UTC
Re: Funnier?
(Anonymous)
2009-08-30 08:29 am UTC (link)
I thought so - my version had him say:

In the church of emacs does not discriminate on sex, race, species or phylum.

and defined virgin as any entity unfamiliar with emacs.

If pressed for the reason for this change, he could reply that he has been concerned that there are far more male emacs users that female and wanted to initiate a program of positive action to redress the balance. However, this backfired as he recieved a large number of non-female pleas to be included also.

For example - here's one from an amoeba from south carolina... (yes, lets offend south carolinans too;) )

... didn't go down too well.

I think that some women will automatically wonder if they may be raped by some members of the audience is a bad sign for our community. We seriously need to rethink all those subtle little things we do... women clearly are feeling like minorities as well as actually being one. They feel threatened.

knowing RMS I figured that he was *commenting on* the gender politics in tech, and positive action - lots is written on "how do we got more women into itc etc. The idea that COE members, predominantly male, accost women with "come back to my place and I'll show you my emacs" is inherently silly, as well as a sad comment on the attitude of males in tech to the women they meet.

The reaction should be a heads-up.

There is also a problem with context. A great deal of the skits humour is in the body language. You have to see it happen - go look. Look at the other recordings of it. Irony does not show in a transcript.

The original skit was a reaction to the comments which have dogged the free software movement from it's conception - we were called religious fanatics and rms was likened to a mad prophet. Even the sympathetic reily bio constantly describes him as like an old testament prophet.

Then there was the editor wars - which produced alt.religion.emacs and the idea of the church of emacs.
By deliberately adopting and exaggerating the trappings of religious fanaticism, RMS is ridiculing his detractors.

That was then, this is now... the audience has changed, the press no longer make so many religious comparisons. Some readers will have to look up the emacs references. And we are all a lot more sensitive about political correctness now.

Perhaps the whole skit has just outlived its usefulness?

Anyway: the virgin line was what? June/July? He's done the skit since then and has dropped it.





Why do we assume that a virgin must be female? RMS felt the need to specify that he meant a female when he meant virgin.


I'll have to get him to talk about gender politics in the free software movement when he comes to NZ.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

I agree with you
[info]https://me.yahoo.com/little_miry#5f22d
2009-07-16 09:03 am UTC (link)
Thanks for your comment, I share your point of view.

(Reply to this)


[info]nec_p1us_u1tra
2009-07-16 01:51 pm UTC (link)
That's so stupid. Maybe the joke is not funny, but it's clearly overreacted.

Moreover, I'm entirely confused with anti-sexists who maintain a list of "(insert gender here) contributors". Looks like Elephant joke to me

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lionsphil
2009-07-16 05:08 pm UTC (link)
Bonus points to people who go "look, female contributors, and they're smart, too!". Yes, because obviously that was a triumph over adversity for them, what with their chromosonal disability that made becoming competent technical types harder for them. Simultaneously depreciating the effort put in by male contributors and insinuating that most women are less capable in one piece of cack-handed look-at-me-I'm-supporting-equality: smoooooth.

At least they're not as bad as the anti-sexists who say "we need to attract more women to the field". Erm. Right. Because deliberately appealing to contributors by their sex is, er, apparently something else, then.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-07-17 07:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lionsphil, 2009-07-17 10:41 am UTC
Join us now and share the software
[info]shmivejournal
2009-07-16 04:54 pm UTC (link)
RMS is a by all accounts a huge-bearded homeless guy, right? I mean, yeah he lives out of his office, but just barely. He explicitly doesn't carry a cell phone because he thinks that's how the black helicopters are going to locate him some day. He has tremendously horrible B.O. and he browses the web through an insane e-mail system for... some inexplicable reason. His great passion is bulgarian folk dancing.

But you and everyone else are all "He said some weird stuff!! WHAT'S GOING ON! RMS! He is acting strange! What's wrong with RMS?" like this is a reasonable person. IT IS YOU WHO ARE INSANE.

The fact that this man is entirely unreasonable is why you have GNU in the first place. RMS is the Joan of Arc of software licensing.

Edited at 2009-07-16 04:56 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Join us now and share the software
[info]lionsphil
2009-07-16 05:11 pm UTC (link)
I'm pretty sure the message here is "he is a bad figurehead because he keeps saying this shit and is incapable of comprehending that it might be a bad thing". Also "he is not immune to criticism just because he is ignorant, and leaving it standing while people still pay him attention is tactic agreement that actually what he says is somehow representative or acceptable".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Join us now and share the software - [info]jimbojones, 2009-07-16 05:45 pm UTC
Re: Join us now and share the software - (Anonymous), 2009-07-16 06:44 pm UTC
Re: Join us now and share the software - [info]shmivejournal, 2009-07-16 06:46 pm UTC
Re: Join us now and share the software - [info]lionsphil, 2009-07-16 07:02 pm UTC
Re: Join us now and share the software - [info]reddragdiva, 2009-07-17 03:40 am UTC
Re: Join us now and share the software - [info]amayita, 2009-07-22 03:34 pm UTC
Re: Join us now and share the software - [info]damned_colonial, 2009-07-17 07:10 am UTC
Re: Join us now and share the software
[info]reddragdiva
2009-07-17 03:36 am UTC (link)
"RMS is the Joan of Arc of software licensing."

I did hear tell he'd never had a period, true.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Isn't this a specific historical reference?
(Anonymous)
2009-07-16 05:09 pm UTC (link)
Isn't this a specific historical reference, not a gender reference? He starts out by talking about the Church of Emacs with their schisms - a spoof on Christian religious traditions, and particularly the schisms between Roman (Western) and Orthodox (Eastern) Catholicism over incredibly obscure and trivial theological wrangling.

Then he goes on to parody Judaism and in particular Bah/Bat Mitzvahs.

Then he goes on to parody the Roman cult of the Vestal Virgins. These were all female and to... er... devirginate one was considered not just rape but also blasphemy.

I don't think RMS was pulling some sort of "LOL womenz is stupid and I liks 2 sexor them" stunt. I think he was just trying to make humourous references to real religious beliefs and in this case as the reference was an all-female group he phrased his parody in all-female terms to match. It would be harder to know what he was referring to if he didn't. Does RMS view genders differently? I've never met him, but I don't see the above as being a sex/gender reference at all. I see it as a vaguely accurate parody of a Roman religious cult.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Isn't this a specific historical reference?
[info]mjg59
2009-07-16 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Given that RMS has stated that "The cult of the Virgin of Emacs is simply intended as a joke about the cult of the Virgin Mary", I don't think it's intended as a reference to Roman pantheistic beliefs.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Isn't this a specific historical reference? - (Anonymous), 2009-07-17 01:11 pm UTC
Re: Isn't this a specific historical reference? - [info]mjg59, 2009-07-17 01:12 pm UTC
rms's joke
(Anonymous)
2009-07-16 10:18 pm UTC (link)
Let me tell you how I interpret it.

So, the controversial joke in question is about male geek hackers. It says that not only the lack of celibacy won't change anything when they join the EMACS cult, the only relation they can ever hope to have with a woman is to teach one how to use EMACS. It portrays free software devs as these nerdy weirdos who worship their computers in their mother's basement. Not only do I not see this as degrading women, if anything it is degrading the image of us geek hackers! I mean if I were a woman, I'd probably write a blog post about rms being sexist towards male hackers.

I cannot believe none of these anti-rms people get the evident self-parody.

This game is really sad. rms deserves none of this spontaneous surge of hatered from the GNOME and Mono community. It has shown a face I honestly did not expect to see.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: rms's joke
[info]mjg59
2009-07-16 10:23 pm UTC (link)
So, the controversial joke in question is about male geek hackers

Citation needed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: rms's joke - (Anonymous), 2009-07-17 11:34 am UTC
Re: rms's joke - [info]lionsphil, 2009-07-17 01:24 pm UTC
Re: rms's joke - (Anonymous), 2009-07-17 03:12 pm UTC
Re: rms's joke - (Anonymous), 2009-07-17 03:29 pm UTC
Re: rms's joke - (Anonymous), 2009-07-18 03:03 am UTC

[info]reddragdiva
2009-07-17 02:33 am UTC (link)
Obviously, this is proof that Mono is excellent. The kernel shall be rewritten in it without delay.

[I facepalmed at the idiocy you flag.]

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mjg59
2009-07-17 03:21 am UTC (link)
You know he's keynoting Wikimania, right?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]reddragdiva, 2009-07-17 03:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xlerb, 2009-07-21 08:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]reddragdiva, 2009-07-22 06:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]reddragdiva, 2009-07-17 04:23 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2009-07-22 05:07 pm UTC (link)
Keep your shit off the Planet!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mjg59
2009-07-22 05:28 pm UTC (link)
That'd be easier to respond to if you mentioned which planet.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nec_p1us_u1tra, 2009-07-28 02:59 pm UTC
Please refrain from using the word bitch
(Anonymous)
2009-07-22 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Mathew, I saw in one of your previous blogs that you used the word bitch to describe your complaint about PowerDevil http://mjg59.livejournal.com/2008/11/23/

I find the use of this term degrading for all the obvious reasons... "a common English vulgarism for a woman, that typically carries denigrating or misogynistic overtones —such as resemblance to a dog. Its usage may be to characterize someone as having aggressive and spiteful bitterness, or else in being in possession of rudely intrusive or domineering tendencies."

Thank you

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Please refrain from using the word bitch
[info]mjg59
2009-07-22 05:27 pm UTC (link)
Fair. I'll try to avoid that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Deleted post)
Re: David "Lefty" Schlesinger aka 'stonemirror' is hiding some ugly sexist history of his own
[info]mjg59
2009-08-09 01:44 pm UTC (link)
I've deleted this and your other comments because you're cutting and pasting the same thing in multiple locations, and it's got absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: David "Lefty" Schlesinger aka 'stonemirror' is hiding some ugly sexist history of his own - (Anonymous), 2009-08-09 01:57 pm UTC

(Deleted post)
Re: Completely unjust crucifixion
[info]mjg59
2009-08-11 03:36 pm UTC (link)
You've also posted this here, so I've deleted this copy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(126 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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